pavedwave longboarding

pavedwave · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 1120 Location: seattle wa usa

At one month of testing and about 250 miles it's about time I split the Virage LDP testing thread off on its own. I'll be bringing some of the details over from the "front truck" thread where this discussion got started.

This is the setup I'm "settling" into:
- No risers, only thin rubber shock pads
- Rear truck with Red Eliminator Venom bottom, Red Venom barrel top
- Front truck with Orange Carve Venom cone bottom, Khiro white bitch top
- Small spacers on hangars making total width from outside edge of wheels at 8-1/4" wide
- 76mm Lime-Lemon Retro-thane Gumballs.

The only change I have planned currently will be a longer 3" kingpin, and white BlackOps Avilas.

4.14.09: Got the 3" kingpin mounted, now able to fit a barrel + bitch on top with room to spare. Discovered an instant increase in turniness, and also a bit more wheel rub, as evidenced by the new black lines on my wheels. Will need to compensate with a little more riser. Only got to do a short spin around the block, but already the feel is much, much smoother with the longer pin.

Pros and Cons

(a list that will change in the future as things progress)

+ no slop. precision of turn and precision axles add up to overall smoothness.
+ lowest topmount LDP with 76mm wheels, at 4-1/8" height. the perfect hybrid pusher-pumper.
+ easy to mount on board and go. no long/short bolts, no angle risers.
+ high clearance. no more kingpins catching on road turtles and rocks.
+ durability seems extremely high. testing will validate.
+ wear on bushings minimal so far.
+ flexible. can swap to cheaper steel axles if precisions are not desired.

- bearings can get stuck on precision axles after long use / getting dirty.
- more expensive than non-precision trucks.
- need to tap out the kingpin to change bottom bushing and get hangar off and on (should be resolved in production model)

+/- the style of turn is different from Bennett, not as divey / surfy.
+/- learned how to pop stuck bearings off the axle smoothly (see pics below) better than Splitfires which forced me to beat up the hangar a little.
+/- need to improve the durability of the spherical bearing (surrounding the kingpin.) i found mine to get loosened up after 350 miles of riding, to the point where the bearing is loose enough to separate from its casing. this may be solved through either 1. securing the outside ring better to the hangar so that the bearing doesn't rattle and wear down as quickly 2. using a nylon version which might hold up better having a little more "give" or 3. assuming this part as needing replacing every xxx miles.

I can't wait to see the production run -- on a purely aesthetic note, these already have an amazingly cool looking finish, so I'm sure the extra polish on the final ones will be jaw dropping. Personally I'd probably stick to the raw (not anodized) finish because on the trails we ride here in Seattle the rocks and other things that pop up tend to bang up the hangars pretty fast.

Height measured from ground to top of deck

Mermaid-Virage topmount LDP setup vs. Roe Speedboard dropthrough prototype

RoeMM-Virage - 4.125"
RoeDH-Randal 160's - 3.75"

Wear and Tear

The main discovery was the wear from the spherical which was likely the cause of the "clicking" sound I'd been hearing over the past couple weeks. Originally I thought this might be the hangar catching on the threads of the kingpin. Now my theory is that the spherical piece slips over the transition on the pin where the threading starts -- particularly in rainy conditions, when the soaked bushings allow the hangar to turn to their most extreme angle, allowing the spherical to slide even further toward the end of the pin. What's solving this is using one of the pins that Panda and I had customized for the breaking Bennett pins -- the pins have more smooth shank and this is where all the spherical action should take place, rather than against any threads.

I really don't expect slalom riders to run into this same issue, as they aren't typically cranking their trucks to their full range of motion with such regularity and consistency, let alone with the same degree of torque that we do in flatland LDP.

You can see from this shot (top to bottom) a brand new generic pin which comes stock with the Virage, then the "improved" pin which I'm currently running, and last is the pin that I rode in the Virage over the past month, the red marks denoting the spherical wear points.

Getting a bearing un-stuck from a precision axle

As noted, when dealing with precision axles, and especially the combination of Biltin bearings with precisions, the tolerances are by design extremely low -- so with just a bit of road grit and lots of miles underfoot, the two can become quite literally inseparable. Unless you know what to do, that is. You don't want to learn this out on the road, should a bearing change ever become necessary. What you'll need is a screwdriver preferably with a rubberized handle that can be tapped on the ground without breaking it.

The great thing about this process on the Virage, is that unlike the Splitfires, you don't end up hammering or damaging the hangar at all. If done correctly, you don't have to damage the axles or bearings either. Also, although I haven't fulled vetted this, I think non-Biltin bearings should seize on the axles a bit less, since the spacers are separate.

It starts with a little road grime...

When removing the axles, they can get bound as grit on the threads builds up, stopping the axle from sliding through the bearing pair.

Just put the tip of the screwdriver on the hole at end of axle, then pop the wheel down over the screwdriver shaft by gently hammering the whole combination down toward the ground.

Usually the axle will slide all the way through, but sometimes it might get stuck on the outside bearing, adding another step.

The spherical casing ring groove (back of front truck)

The idea behind the groove here was with a shorter kingpin, it makes pushing the kingpin out to remove hangars unnecessary -- the groove should allow the hangar to slip on and off. What I'm noticing is over time the ring around the spherical is slowly rotating in a clockwise direction. This is a trivial thing -- if the ring didn't have the groove ground into it, it would still be rotating without this fact even being noticed.

This bit matters little to me, since I run with a longer kingpin and have to tap out the pin to change bottom bushings anyway (which I envision doing very rarely.) I don't really see it as a negative, just an observation.

===============================================

The Virage-testing Timeline to date (taken from GPS blog)

MARCH

12th - 13 mile skate - VIRAGE trucks First Day!! 2006 Roe Mermaid with camber, no concave, 70mm wheels. Rode home, mix of pump and push. Narrowest hangar setup. Will widen out and go with 76mm wheels on the next one.
13th - 13m skate, re-mounted the Virages on a 2007 Mermaid with camber and concave, 76mm Pink Gumballs.
15th - mellow cyber and breakfast for Jackman's birthday, put the Virages on the Walkabout - Brad and Dave checked it out.

16th - 13m skate, on the Walkabout with Virages, white bitch top and white barrel bottom in front.
17th - 16m skate, now back on the Mermaid + Virages, this time front truck is mounted with only a thin rubber shock pad, 76mm pink gumballs and still no wheelbite! At just over 4 inches, the lowest big-wheeled topmount pumper/pusher combo to date, at least in my quiver.
18th - 15m skate, Mermaid + Virage ride II, getting comfortable on this type of truck again (a lot like the splitfire days, only better)
19th - 3m skate, from the bus to work and back. Taking it easy before the ultraskate.

21st - Ultraskate VI - 80 miles on the Virage setup. the low pushing came in handy all the way up Stone Way!
23rd - 3m skate and bus

(lot of biking and running due to rain)

30th - 13m skate home (Virage, 81a red venom bottom, white Bitch top) half of the ride was rain, met Skip at the very end.
31st - 26m skate to and from work. On the way in was seriously strong wind, half way home was rain. Same bushings on the Virage. Getting an old familiar clicking sound, might be bushings rubbing on the spherical?

APRIL

[Virage test total at 4/1/09: 195m, only swaps have been bushings, no change in pins or axles]

4th - 15m sunrise skate, out to woodinville and back. the 'click' sound from the Virage really picked up after one run through a wet portion of the trail, after a solid hour of no clicking sounds, so it's pretty conclusive that moisture plays a part.
5th - Salem Slalom - moved the Virages to my old Roe slalom board and had lots of noobs out on it -- they took to it instantly on the GS course.

6th - 13m skate home, moved the Virage setup off the slalom board, back onto the Mermaid, but left the 70mm orange front, lemon rears on. it was fun to ride the "tiny" wheels all the way back home for a change.
7th - 13m skate home, put 76mm Lime BZigs back on the Virages, since the Pinks are at work. Put a little wider spacer in the back, so now the edge to edge measurement on the wheels is 8-1/4" equally front and rear.
8th - 13m skate home.

...tons of rain...

15th - 26m skate - finally!!! Some freaking SUN! Rode the 3" kingpin on the Virage with a little more riser. Much smoother, though I've created some new squeaking noise which I think is just the board chewing me out for not riding it enough. Met Panda near Matthews beach on the way home, dude's been cranking some miles.
16th - 13m skate home

18th - 14m skate at sunrise with Panda at Greenlake, 1st day on the white ops avilas. Plush and smooth.

19th - 30m skate out to Marymoor and back. Removed the spherical and ran the Virage with a cone bushing in place of the bearing.
20th - 13m skate home. Orange Venom cone is splitting in a weird place.
21st - 13m skate home.
22nd - 13m skate home. 30 degrees colder. Need new headphones.
23rd - 13m skate home.
25th - 30m skate to Marymoor and back. First day putting the metal spherical back after a week on the cone bushing "urethane grommet." The bearing is pretty loose at this point, real squeaky. Look forward to trying out a nylon spherical + bearing combo.
26th - 7m skate to Dave's, then random skating down in Puyallup, a few miles on the 0.8-mle "LDP track" and some fast runs on the hill. Took the Virage-Avilas-LDP up to 35mph comfortably. (GPS -- comparing times with Stryker and Jackman)

[Virage test total at 4/26/09: 421m - front metal spherical needs replacing]

4.27.09 - Changed to Bennett front, Virage rear. Production Virage LDP's are on their way from the UK - but got waylaid in customs.

27th - 13m skate.
28th - 26m bike - rain in the morning but nice in the evening, I'd rather be skating!
29th - 17m skate.
30th - 17m skate. 75 degree weather, yee haw. Skating to Logboom Park with Sophie (on her bike) is becoming an evening ritual!

MAY

1st - 26m skate to and from work.
2nd - 11.3m skate at Greenlake.

===============================================

4.19.09

When my buddy Stryker looked over my disassembled Virage on our Salem slalom weekend, he said "man, you've worked this thing" -- referring to wear on the spherical and the casing around it. Having ridden the front pretty hard on a few long rides with the 3.25" kingpins and seeing no visible wear on the pin, I'm 95% convinced at this point that the source of the clicking sound has something to do with the spherical casing's gradual rotating movement inside the hangar, and nothing to do with the hangar touching the kingpin.

I was finally able to push the spherical casing and bearing out more easily, and substituted a "urethane spherical bearing" in the form of a white khiro cone this weekend. I did this both in my garage and out on the trail, using nothing more than a skate tool, which bodes well for the "on the road" experience. Realize however to completely remove a 3"+ kingpin will require removing the baseplate.

4.26.09

After riding a full week using the urethane cone jammed into place where the spherical bearing normally resides, I found all noise issues (clicking) solved, and got the responsiveness dialed with a white barrel bottom, then the part of the cone that sticks out of the hangar, then a top white barrel, topped off with an orange Venom tall cone, on a 3.25" kingpin.

However, I wanted to get back to the precision feel with the spherical, so I stuck it back together and found that the spherical casing + bearing can now be pushed out, or back into place with fingers and thumbs. The casing (ring) has opened up enough that the bearing is loose and can fall freely from it. This occurred somewhere around 300--350 cumulative miles of ride time.

At this point I want to test a nylon casing + bearing and see how long it lasts. I think the nylon would both solve noise issues (squeaking and clicking) and would simply need to be replaced after XX miles, will have to see how long it holds up in comparison. Another thought that came to mind was possibly securing the metal spherical casing in place either through a very small amount of loctite, or else small "out-dentations" that would hold the casing more securely within the hangar.

As for the rear truck -- pure fluidity and power, and holding up well. I still need to experiment more with angles to see if the power seems in any way enhanced, but I would suspect this will boil largely down to preference and pump style as much as anything. I've been running the rear truck flat the entire time and it works awesomely. Bushing and hangar wear has been very minimal.

============================================

Alan asked some good questions to what "style" of riding the Virage setup lends itself.

As noted in the neutral feedback under the pros/cons list, the main thing to note is that the front Virage does not feel like a Bennett. It doesn't turn and pivot quite as quickly / suddenly at slower speeds. This is the well-known Bennett "dive" that freaks people out at higher speeds. So on flats, I find myself kicking up to a slighly higher speed, but cranking out more powerful pumps once I'm there. This is the same way I used to ride a few years ago when I ran Splitfires front and rear. The Virage's pivot is more like a tic-tac and when combined with the powerful flex from a responsive deck, adds up to smooth and fast propulsion, especially in the 10mph+ zone. Under that speed, you may feel it makes you work a little more.

One place I really see a difference is comfort at speed. Out on a slalom hill today (4.26.09) we clocked this Virage-Mermaid-Avilas setup at 35mph, and I was feeling totally comfortable, tucking and shooting nearly straight forward, just keeping a slight "edge" going as I always do at speed. In contrast on a Bennett front truk, one learns how to stay even more conscious of high speeds, and many simply just decide to footbrake earlier and just not go past 25mph to start with. In that sense, the Virage is more versatile for a truly cross-country adventure that involves more varied terrain, big hills + flats, and as noted also in the "pros" the fact that the Virage has a higher clearance to keep from hooking up on rocks and such, when the road surface is a first-time experience and more unpredictable.

I think its hard to say if the Virage (front truck) is quantitatively better for certain sub-endeavors within the tiny niche of LDP. A lot boils down to personal style and like/dislike of the Bennett vs. reversed-kingpin truck feel. Those who are looking for a quicker responsiveness on the slow end and like to carve a little more as they cruise, might feel the Virage doesn't turn as fast -- but there is also a small learning curve before you start to appreciate the Virage's stable, powerful, and agile feel once you get moving faster. I find the truck couples best with a snappy flexy deck, rather than a rock-stiff one, but this might just be showing my bias towards flex.

============================================

5.1.09

"...how much riser are you using with the avilas?"
The total height was just under 4.25" - I think I was running 1/8" riser in front and 1/4" riser in rear, plus thin shock pads. The Avilas are just a hair lower than my Gumball-Zigs (75mm vs. 76mm) but the width of the Avilas required a touch more riser.

Right now I'm running a Bennett front, and Virage rear, and the total height of the deck is still under 4.5"

"With the standard axles how wide can these trucks be spaced?"
With 1/4" spacers my guess is that puts the standard LDPs at about 5.4" I'm not sure on the particulars yet. Apparently the sets of wider LDPs made it out to everyone except me, waylaid in customs clearance!!

I've added some additional note above in the pros/cons list regarding the wear on the spherical bearing.

Batalero · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 33 Location: France

Thanks a lot for this review James.

wafflesole · Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 82

excellent stuff james.

cappa · Joined: 11 Oct 2008 Posts: 42

Thanks for the thorough review. The Virages look great.

Just curious - what size riser did you add after adjusting the height to compensate for the 3" kingpin? And what's the new total setup height?

Thanks

stridey · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 48

Because the design has a steep kingpin, adding longer kingpins shouldnt mean you need to add any riser.

James was riding the pre-prod Slalom front, spaced out to L.D.P. widths. Modifications from that pre-prod truck to full production included reducing the angle of base plate by 5 degrees and enlarging the top bushing placemen to allow for Venom Eliminators..

The L.D.P version retains the 60 degree baseplate but with 5mm more height, with slightly longer kingpin hole, and longer kingpins so that the spherical is fully on smooth shaft. We have also made the fit of the kingpin slightly less tight, more of a 'tap with a mallet' rather than 'find a press'....fit.

The production Virages also have a slightly greater scalloping of the bearing so that hangers can easily fit over ANY length of fixed kingpin. Once the hanger is located over the kingpin it slides down until the pivot is over the cup, then a simple motion locates it perfectly. No more tapping of kingpins!

We have also added a small almost imperceptible lip on the bearing seat so that it can be located easily into the hanger. This also means we can add some studlock to prevent it rotating.

The rear Virage LDP has 10 degrees less angle, and the baseplate is extended by an amount that sets both axles at the same height...the idea being that you can run with 1 small 1/8th inch soft riser for a small amount of dampenning.

The axles have been lengthed and the hangers by a corresponding amount, really so that no weakness is introduced through leverage, though James has been riding standard Slalom hangers with spacer to get the width.

We are really grateful to James for testing the trucks under Seattle conditions. The terrain and distances he has achieved bode well for the structural integrity of the Virage concept. When we first decided to go for reversed axles we did have a few naysayers....but we always felt it worth trying something 'different'...and James explanation of the way stuck bearings can be removed is brilliant -thanks!

As for axle strength, I keep looking at my screw in axles from high end slalom trucks and shudder that where the greatest strain is the thread is approx 6.7mm and right next to a thread. The Virage uses clean, smooth shafts at all the potential weakpoints on the axles, at 8mm and also on the kingpin. I also feel the choice of regular pivot cup combined with a machined spherical pivot add a touch of dampenning and shock absorbtion.

Anyway, thanks once again for all the testing, and feedback. Im sure over time we will do small incremental improvements, but so far the feedback has been invaluable.

Cheers!

pavedwave · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 1120 Location: seattle wa usa

Thanks for the feedback guys. And huge thanks again Michael for pursuing the development of a truck that performs this well AND holds up to the mileage. This test cycle has been highly educational, and a ton of fun along the way. Fortunately I haven't yet run into any breakage issues, or I might be grumbling more!

I'm still working on final height issues and won't know exactly until the "production" Virages are under test, but my overall deck height is still at 4.25". Remember one thing about the width of Avilas is that they do wheelrub quicker than narrower wheels of the same 75mm height, which might be another motivating factor to shave down the lips -- although I have no intention to do so just yet.

I'll continue to edit and add updates to the original post above as the mileage mounts. (The latest add: "urethane spherical")

cheers
james

egret · Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 84

Will the production VLDP come with bushings? If so, what kind?

If not, what are the recommendations so I can be ready?

stridey · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 48

The LDPs dont come with bushings.....

Bushings are such a very personal choice, and whatever we put on wouldnt be to everyones tastes or weights. We do put large, small Khiro washers and and flat washers too (new and improved on the new run). In any case sending bushings back out on a second transatlantic trip wouldnt really be economical...I hate it when skate stuff has a more exciting life than I do!

Also, we are finding it really hard to maintain stocks of Venoms.

The production front hanger allows for Venom eliminators, or Radikal bushings which have dished faces ideal for spherical bearings as they rotate proud of their casing. (or you can scoop out a regular bushing with a scalpel). The pictures above show the proto version, now the front is flatter in the bushing area.

On the rear I have been running an eliminator on the bottom, but a barrel top and bottom seems the norm. On the rears the elim style will not fit on the top, as part of the design is that the side of the bushing will act as a buffer against over turning.

egret · Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 84

Any news? Did the kingpins arrive? Do they ship tomorrow?

If I ordered regular axles will I get a spare set too or just the custom axle guys?

Also. what is the widest we can space these out to? Would it be possible to get longer axles or would that be ridiculous?

stridey · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 48

Trucks are being assembled, I just need to do some final fettling, oping to get out Tuesday/Wednesday now.

Just got back from racing in Switzerland, riding LDP rear as a GS setup, LDP front hanger on slalom baseplate front.

Right, axles, if you ordered custom axles you get 1 set of 2, with spare nuts only. With the first set of slalom trucks we did send out spare cust down axles, but with LDP trucks you can easily source part threaded M8 axles probably cheaper than here, but more importantly, IF you did want to widenen the axles you gould get longer bolts too and space them outwards.

The precision axles probably have 3-4mm room for spacing, and with the extra length of axle hole the LDPs have this would likely not weaken things too much.

Mind you, at 124mm I feel we have a width that would work well for most people, most of the time.

Sorry for the delays, I WILL do something nice for the early adopters. Promise.