pavedwave longboarding

fontinalis · Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 6

I've noticed that several of the dedicated LDP decks have cutaway tails to prevent wheel bite. Has anyone experimented with a large wheels in back and smaller up front? What might be the effect for pumping?

On the Future page on the Subsonic site there is a dropped deck version of the Pulse called the Century. It has 85mm in the rear and 75mm in front.

jat. · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:26 am Post subject:

I'm guessing that the extra millimeters in the back add some stability. So I'm guessing that with mixed wheel sizes you have the ability to tweak even more seeing as smaller wheels usually allow more agile turning and bigger wheels are more stable.
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dustm · Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Raleigh, NC

I'm giving this a try today with 70mm orange zigs up front and 79a 77mm black ops vents in the back.

pavedwave · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 1120 Location: seattle wa usa

It's all about the Cyber Mile Laughing

LDPanda · Joined: 21 Nov 2008 Posts: 418 Location: Seattle, WA

Ive refrained from posting in this thread becuase i havent tried mixed sizes, but i think there might be some misconceptions going on that i want to touch on. The reason behind large rear wheels for F-1 or funny car racers has to do with the fact that power is delivered to the rear wheels by the engine. In LDP we convert angular momentum into linerar acceleration, a very different process of generating thrust. That being said, I belive larger wheels will always be better UNTIL you increase the height of the deck to the point where it is uncomfortable to footbreak and push. That is, i dont beleive there is a reason to mix wheel sizes, go as big as you can without raising your deck height too much. Large wheels roll over obstacles better, have better shock absorbtion for their duro (as long as the core isnt huge as well) and maintain roll speed better. They may lack slightly in acceleration from a stop, but when your journey is 20 mi +, who cares. Why would you want to 'gimp' one side of your setup by placing smaller wheels? Are 'smaller' wheels more agile or is it that 'narrower' wheels are more agile? I fully support mixed contact patch sizes, like trimmed avilas in front and untrimmed in back, but I cant endorse mixed wheel 'heights.'

Just my 2c.

Edit: re-reading the OP, i realize he brought up the issue of tail cutouts, and its a good point. I suppose you could use larger wheels in the rear while removing risers from the truck and keep a balanced deck height and not affect pushing/braking. That might have some advantages, its hard to say without trying.

RiPPer · Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Posts: 53

dustm · Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Raleigh, NC

I just wrote up a huge response to this and lost it when i had to log-in after pressing submit (after having been logged in already).

Maybe its for the better because it was long-winded. Still annoying though. Is there some sort of setting I can change?

Basically the jist of it was... Smaller wheels' lower inertia reduces the amount of energy necessary to accelerate them all different ways in a pump cycle. Aside from the obvious linear accelerations, the wheel RPMs change constantly, the truck turning action is fighting the wheels' gyroscopic forces, and the contact patches are scrubbing. The front truck turns more and travels farther side to side than the rear, and because of this magnitude of difference, energy reduction would be greater with smaller wheels used in the front vs. in the rear.

I just got back from riding my setup with the orange 70mm zigs up front and black ops 79a 77mm vents in the back, and it was easier to accelerate, easier to pump slow, tracked better, and seemed to glide better, all possibly having nothing to do with wheel size at all considering the other differences of these 4 wheels. The new vents and zigs are lighter weight, higher duro, and higher rebound formula than the white/blue vents I had on there previously. It was also a more harsh ride. Even just 1/8" lower up front made pushing feel not so laborious though and I was no longer *this close* to wheelbite. A more direct comparison would be black ops 79a vents all around vs 79a vents rear, 79a (or 84a) black ops hot spots front. or similar with zigs/bigzigs. Of course this is not a test as much as a subjective comparison. Mile times will tell.

Big wheels may feel more stable and grippy because they are wider, wider set, and have a longer contact patch, or at least a more gradual application and removal of contact patch as the wheel rolls becaues of the larger radius. The wheel feels more connected at a given speed, and is turning lower rpm than a small wheel.

LDPanda · Joined: 21 Nov 2008 Posts: 418 Location: Seattle, WA

dustm · Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Raleigh, NC

Yeah, I see what you mean and you're right, I'm talking mostly short duration sprints. My home trails would have some rather 'interesting' spots with the orange zigs!

Interesting discussion here... You may have inspired me to trim my orange bigzigs down in width a bit. In effect that would make them ride softer too. I wonder how they would do set super narrow with the inner lips trimmed to avoid truck bite? Deck lowed, all counts of inertia lowered, but a noob would probably dive/tip the front over in a heartbeat... Or an experienced person may have some stability issues... Not handling stability, but edge to edge foot resistance stability. A wider rear track with some firm yet spongy, reboundy bushings would be a must for it to feel right, and then only once you are up past slow jog for it to start to generate side force when you turn to keep the front axle flat. I know I sometimes get the front wheels to come up some on a 'regular' LDP setup while pulling the front across the fall line accelerating hard at low speed, with the outer edge of the inside wheel gripping and the rest up in the air a little. When its wet too I get them to slide across the fall line like that with real quick 'hump pumps'.

fontinalis · Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 6

Great discussion guys, thanks for all the thoughts. I'm going to play with this as I'm a fan of the big wheel ride feel. You guys blow my mind with your descriptions of pumping technique and style. I've got a lot to learn.