Push vs. Pump - Which is more Efficient?

dmccoach · Push vs. Pump - Which is more Efficient?

Hello,

This week end I was hanging out with some long-time long boarders - a few new folks I have recently met through this great sport...

I was showing off my ROE LDP setup to their interest and a few tried it out - and we were all having a good time - I was told however, by more than one person among the group that "pushing is actually more efficient than pumping - pumping take a lot of energy..."

I didn't provide a reply or rebuttal... and it caught me off gaurd. I just started to think about it.

I personally don't believe the assertion (strictly based on personal experience/insight)... But I must admit that I can't scientfically prove it...

Any thoughts on this? Where might I find scientific evidence of energy expended on equal/same surfaces to do both?

Thanks

fuzzydeer

My opinion (and I am 95% pusher and 5% ldp)
Is that if you train to pump, you will be more efficient at that, and visa versa. HOWEVER when lots of steep climbs are involved (which is always the case with me) pushing will save you energy.
I don't know about your top speeds. How fast are you guys going?
I can maintain a steady cruising speed with LDP, but if I want to be riding at 25-27kph (flat) I have to push.

LD skater since 1971

Pushing is more efficient than pumping if your in hurry need to cover ground really fast.
But if your on flat ground it is the old story of the tortoise and the hare.
LDP is less impact on your body than pushing when your older like me and you can cover more miles with less impact.
I use to able to push for miles when I was younger did not have arthritis in both ankles.
LDP use's less energy on the flat it the hills that get you.
Plus if I am in really hurry the pump/push combo is the best. But I have been taking my time to see the sites on the way now days.

rva

Hi Im new here, and new to skating longer distances... stumbled upon this forum from silverfish... I actually posted a thread there asking about this.

This is somewhat of a long post but hopefully you could help me out.

I was thinking of joining this 9km race... so I was wondering if you guys could give me any advice. Here's some info on it:

distance 9km (~6miles)
mostly flat and slightly uphill throughout the course. according to google earth the total elevation change from start to finish is 33meters
fairly good asphalt road

How would you approach taking this run in terms of pump-push strategy? I think Im fairly fit but not quite a "marathoner" (made up the word). I can push, and can pump (but im not sure I do it all that well).

Also what set up do you suggest? These are the items I own that I'm considering to use:

Decks:
S9 Carbon Trylam
EVO
Stiff Custom Drop Through Speed Deck with a 33inch wheelbaase
Very slightly flexy Pintail with a 28in wheelbase

Trucks
Randal 180's
Randal 150's

Wheels
65mm S9 9balls
70mm red zigs
72mm S9 slalom wheels
76mm gumballs, flys
97mm flys

Ive got the Khiro Barrel Bushng Kit too. Im 145pounds, so what would be good?

Thank you so much in advance for any help!

pavedwave

In short, rva, you're probably best off with pushing most of the time, since a 6 mile course will actually fly by quite fast. Depending on the surface the whole race could be done in 25--30 minutes.

For long distance rides of 26miles++, pumping is definitely the way to go, IMHO, just as Terry notes above: "...it is the old story of the tortoise and the hare..."

I'm also not entirely convinced that all the theory around having to be super-low to the ground is founded in reality. I think a low-as possible, lightweight topmount that still allows for pumping down hills (particularly for the beginner) is a great way to go -- rather than just jump to the drop-through or drop-deck solution. I think it has more to do with what kind of deck you train on most and how you get your body and techniques to adapt to that board. The topmount always feels better to me on fast downhills because of increased control and traction, and obviously it has a better ability to pump, when the conditions allow for it.

From your gear, I'd probably choose:

S9 Carbon Trylam OR Pintail
Randal 150's
70mm red zigs OR 76mm gumballs, flys
Combo of red/blue bushings rear and orange/white bushings front

Got any link / info to the race?
Good luck!!

rva

wow! thank you so much for the advice! I really appreciate you taking your time to answer my long winded questions...

So yeah, I figure I'll go with either of those decks you mentioned. And probably the gumballs. I do feel that yes 6 miles isnt really a great deal of ground to cover... its more like a sprint sort of run in the Long Distance scheme of things. I just did a test run myself of the same distance and clocked in 28 minutes, pushing and a little bit of pumping... Im hoping to cut the time down though. What's up for grabs is a S9 Race topmount speed board, so I hear. This is the website: http://www.sector9manilabomb.com/

The scene here where I'm from (Manila) is still really small... just at its infancy stage really... we have just a handful who've just been bitten by the stoke bug... mostly those who surf and want an alternative when the seas are placid. But I am very confident that the sport will really take off since there's enough buzz around it from those that know the "feeling" of being on a skateboard. To date, we've had 2 downhill races (which I enjoy the most) and 1 freestyle comp (a la those seen in the movie lords of dogtown - except its not on a wooden stage). No doubt, we have lots to learn and we're no where near as good as those of you guys seen on youtube and the like; but just give us a bit of time and we'll catch on Smile

Again, thanks a lot for your advice!

LD skater since 1971

AVA
Learn Chris Yandall skoging it will help with the fatigue of skateboarder leg. If you skate longer distance than 6 to 8 miles.
http://skogging.com/

rva

Thanks for that. Yup, I can push quite well with both legs. Not quite skoggin in the sense that I push mongo when I switch pushing legs. I switch my stance entirely from goofy to regular. I'll probably just push for the most part; and then maybe pump just as a break from pushing.

Thanks again!

pavedwave

I would definitely practice pumping on flats and downhills in preparation, because at the actual event, you'll definitely benefit from a downhill pump -- it'll give your push legs some rest, and for those who don't know how or aren't set up to pump, it can be a bit of a psyche-out Very Happy

Yandall has coached online before that his 'skog' is a lot more about the art and dance of switching push foot and stance. I think the way he likes people to see it is more about the balancing up on the nose and gliding around at a slower pace, that's why his videos have him getting a bit goofy. Apparently it's quite a sight to see him, think of a 6 and half foot Samoan dude with one foot on the board and his arms swinging around, coming right at you on the sidewalk!!

Most of the time I switch push foot I'm basically doing it as a functional, self-preservation on the uphills and way to balance out the muscles -- so I'm basically in the same boat as you, I also push mongo on the alternate foot, which comes quite easily since as a kid I started out a mongo pusher!

That looks like a great event -- thanks for the link!!

LD skater since 1971

Wow switch stance that really hard never been able to do that. Just feel weird to me. Skoging helps you go faster with every push.

rva

Yup, I'll be working on my pumping; and agree that it could psyche some of the guys out lol! I'll keep you guys posted on how the race turns out.

And yes Im sure Yandall skogging would really be a sight to see!

LD skater since 1971

The June 1976 skateboarder magazine I bought from the long board grotto has the original Skate tip Chris Yandall penned on skoging. But back then he called it "cut the Jive & jog" or jogging on your board. He was on skinny board and said it will build new mussels and help your switch stance.
I can't believe I own this issue again like I did over 30 years ago.

pavedwave

Well I'm definitely planning to meet up with Yandall and see his wild moves, a winter trip down to SoCal would be awesome, especially when the Northwest skies are gray and the rains are peaking!!

I just posted some thoughts about push vs. pump on another forum and it related to this topic so...recycling those thoughts here:

I find the "dropdeck versus topmount" efficiency arguments to be overblown. Everyone feels they need a dropped deck because rollsrolls and the skates across america history and everyone else who's been pushing their way around the world is using drop decks. So the popular logic seems to follow that pushing a drop deck is more efficient.

BUT -- the more you balance and switch between an extremely efficient pump and the still efficient push of a relatively low (4.5"--5") topmount deck, the more you will appreciate that the time you spend NOT pushing, is energy you've got stored up for when you do push.

And on top of that, I'm developing some extremely efficient ways to push UP hill on a topmount, that I used a lot during the RSVP ride to BC from Seattle, which was heavily uphill.

It's like an speedskater's motion on ice, switching push legs from side to side, from every 3--5 pushes, maintaining momentum uphill. Unlike the straight-legged pushes on a drop deck, your legs always remain a bit more bent at the knees, to keep slightly higher as the topmount requires (emphasis on slight!) and you crouch a little more. But the overall effect is that I keep up fine with guys on their dropdecks on the inclines. As was mentioned earlier, I guess the only way to really measure efficiency in this regard would be some kind of oxygen input-output measure maybe combined with heart rate monitor to gauge energy expended. But for now I think deciding how close you are to passing out at the top of the hill can be a good "gut level" science Very Happy

edp_swakakin

James that is so freaking Rad that you are going to meet him. I have so much respect for him.

Just the other day I was watching some of his wild vidoes and I was like "wait a second........O now I get it."

He moves the way he does not for any trick per say he does it because it feels good......

He also makes that one footed stuff look easy.....and it is not. Confused

rva

Hey, that race I mentioned is tomorrow. I've decided to go with a drop-through deck that I just made last week. Primarily I made it as a free ride/DH board but I also like its height for pushing. (see image of final set-up below)

I've been doing a bit of skating of the 9km distance over the past 2 weeks, and Im stoked that Ive been able to cut down my time from 28 minutes to 25m45s. Hopefully it's a competitive time.

And oh, it looks like rain tomorrow so... any tips? I know I'll have to watch out for maintaining traction on my pushing foot on the wet pavement. Anything else I should take note of?

Click to see full size image

EDIT: Just finished that race yesterday. Im happy I did ok actually, did it in under 22minutes and placed in the top 5, and by default offically placed 3rd since there were two fniishers ahead of me that didn't check in at a designated check point. Im stoked about it... And as to how it was run, no one really pumped this race since the course was moderately uphill for the most part. And man were my quads burning up! The turn out was great, about 150+ skaters. Good fun! Thanks for the advice again.

edp_swakakin

Top 5 out of 150 skaters.......NICE!!!! Congratz

rva

Thanks! It was a mix of all skaters though... which included some women and kids... so its really more like top 5 of 100 Smile

still happy though!

Belegnole

Well done! Just participating is great and coming in 3rd is awesome...

pavedwave

Parson Adams

I pushed for the first time in months yesterday. WOW, talk about having to learn the feel of a Dervish at high speed all over again. RUSTY Confused

pavedwave

RVA were you in on this? Just spotted this link about a 30km push event in Manila! Seems like a cool distance scene over there

http://freeenergy.ph/home/

Link

stocago

What happened to dmccoach? Haven't seen any posts in a while.

SkateKi · push frequency question

for a solid flatland pace, how many pushes do you guys average per minute?

fuzzydeer

I should find out.

LDPanda

So, Ive been putting in some serious time on my pusher. Now, Im not changing camps or anything but I have noticed a few things. My time for my usual trail run is faster on the pusher, my lower back hurts less (something thats been holding me back lately) and I go through significantly less water. To compare:

Pumper: Subsonic Pulse, Bennett 4.3, Airflow 110, White Avilas and Lime Bigzigs

Pusher: Kebbek Flushcut, Prandal (paris hangar, randal plate) 180s, 85mm white speed vents.

I would say my pumper is built more for comfort than speed and the pusher could be a little lower (flip the hangars maybe) but it has at least let me compare the two. Even though i can only push regular efficently (still working on my mongo) I would say overall Im faster and less tired after a pusher run than a pump.

fuzzydeer

I think I have stated this before but at a fast pace pushing is more efficient, at a melow pace I feel LDP is more efficient, and for absoloute top spped on flat LDP is faster, but I think pushing can do more distance in a day consider the pace is above what is energy effiencient for LDP when skating over 250 miles.

pavedwave

LDPanda

The main thing i notice in terms of efficiency is the amount of water i go through. When im pumping, i always wear my camelpak and usually end up drinking maybe a litre of water every 20 miles (very rough guess). When im pushing, somtimes i dont even take water for my 18-20 mile weekday workouts, other times ill carry a small pint bottle of water in my pocket. I dont pretend to know how water consumption correlates to efficency but i defenitely find myself using less water pushing. I also find its less mentally draining for me. With giant wheels that easily roll over small children, i dont have to stress so much about pinecones, sticks, leaves, intersections, cracks, etc, etc. I do have to worry more about pedestrians though as im somewhat less manueverable.

JeffVyain

Paul said himself that he got a stress fracture during that 250 miler. Pushing tends to hurt my feet after too long. I think combining pushing and pumping will amount to the greatest dispersion of stress over the entire body and will allow us to go faster/longer. Paul seems to be pretty solid pushing with both legs. I'm not an exceptional regular pusher but I am very solid pushing mongo. My other leg will have to be my pump. Now, to save up some cash for some Radikals or the likes to lower my setup by a half inch...

One nice thing about pushing on a pump setup is the board tends to block all that water splash that you get from the wheels on boards with cutaways.

LDPanda

Running radikals for long distance sounds like a problem to me. Its gonna be way twitchy for pushing, have a very tight pump, relitively low top end speed, be very uncomfortable and not very durable. Id imagine youd end up seizing one of those sphericals before too terribly long. Not to mention radikals are extremely expensive for the type of abuse we put our trucks through. If you feel like you have to drop mad cash, go for virages. Radikals are excellent slalom trucks but i would never use them for long distance.

edit: oh, yeah, and you have to tighten the kingpin with a 7mm wrench about every half hour.

pavedwave

JeffVyain

I definitely don't feel like I need to drop mad cash. Virages are probably a much better choice...I wouldn't really know. I haven't tried anything other than my 5.0 Bennett. Does the Virage suffer from the lower top end speed/short pumps? Is Bennett just the way to go here? I'm just looking for something I can run a little lower without getting bite. I don't really NEED a change by any means.

LDPanda

I havent spent as much time on virages as some others here but i definitely didnt feel like that had a low top speed. Quite the contrary, i think for their width theyre probably a little 'faster' than a bennett BUT at a higher energy input. I didnt find the virage as 'effortless' as a bennett but it felt plenty fast and i dont think i ever 'topped them out.' Of the alternatives to a bennett front ive tried, i liked the virage front the best. That said, if it aint broke ...

JeffVyain

Top speed is really what I want. Ultimately, I think I'll probably do some street racing on it. I want to push/pump the Broadway Bomb next year, among other races. I think of pumping as primarily a downhill endeavor to reach greater top speeds than I'd be able to do pushing.

Push vs. Pump - Which is more Efficient?

push frequency question