Pumping - I think I'm not using my rear leg...

Moddos · Pumping - I think I'm not using my rear leg...

Greetings,

I just received a Mermaid complete a few days ago. It's my second board; I've got a badly set up slalom-ish board I bought a few months ago, I never managed to learn how to pump on that, but I was amazed when I could pump right away on the Mermaid. (It's already set up for LDPing, so all I had to do was stand on it and wiggle.)

However, I don't think I'm doing it right. I've read a lot online and looked at a few videos, but I just can't get myself to actually put my weight in my back leg. I noticed that I'm almost always leaning forward (weight on the front leg) while rapidly 'swinging' it back and forth; I do accelerate a bit, but my front leg gets tired very quickly. I replaced my initial bushings with harder ones today (to prevent wheelbite), and my previous technique almost doesn't work anymore (since the truck is a bit stiffer).

Am I right to assume that you really should be doing a fair amount of the work with your rear leg?
I'm currently not using it for anything except slightly shifting weight back and forth (perpendicular to the board); it is my front foot that pushes and pulls the board to generate the force to accelerate.
I noticed looking at videos of people pumping that their board's tail seems to swing back and forth, I believe it doesn't do that for me, and I just can't get my body to put more weight on the back foot while keeping up the movement. Once I put weight on the back foot, I end up just standing still on my board.

Also, I've only been doing very small but fairly fast movements, as soon as I try anything mellower (or if I try to swing my arms along with the movement) I can't get it right.

Am I doing something obvious wrong?
I'll try using slightly softer bushings again, but it seems wrong that only my front leg (mainly the quads) gets tired from pumping. I tried swinging my hips, but since I'm only generating force with my front leg anyway, it doesn't seem to help much Smile

I'll keep trying, but thanks for any tips you might have,

Cheers,
M

LDPanda

Welcome!

The pump i think youre describing (the one thats tiring out your lead leg) is the same pump i learned first. Lots of weigh up front and mashing the front truck side to side. It works (at least with softish bushings) but youre right, its not as graceful or efficient as many pumps. Youre on the right track though. First off, it takes lots of practice, dont expect to be pumping uphill at 15mph your first day out (or your second or third). Just keep at it and i gaurantee youll discover a new pump every few sessions. Some pumps are more lead leg heavy (like the one youve already learned) some are more rear leg heavy, some are more driven by the core and upper body. You mention that in videos it seems like the tail is moving around a lot but when youre on the board it doesnt. I found the same thing to be true until a friend taped me pumping and i realized my tail was swinging around too, its just hard to tell. My best suggestion is to find a mild downhill slope, just a few degrees off flat, and practice. The little bit of downhill will give you a better feel for keeping up your momentum and keep you from getting too frustrated. It will also help you get up to a heigher speed pushing and its easier to learn to pump when youre already going pretty quickly. Checking out videos and descriptions and whatnot is great but nothing can replace actually getting out there and trying it.

Good Luck!

LDPanda

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6I73I8Jvbhc

I think this is probably the best video to see different styles of pumping. He goes through several different styles including the one i think youre descrbing. There is no one right way to pump, what important is to learn a lot of different techniques and switch it up frequently so you dont tire out particular muscle groups.

stocago

Definitely go back to softer bushings in front. If wheelbite is an issue add a tad more riser.

Be patient. Unfortunately, it'll take some time to learn different pumps. I don't think I can describe what I do. Just practice, practice, practice. You'll know when you get there and you'll wonder why you didn't get there sooner!

If you mention your wedging/dewedging and bushing duros maybe that could help as well.

Moddos

Thanks for the encouraging comments everyone Smile

Panda, what you mention definitely sounds like what I'm doing now, it's good to hear that I'm not the only one who started out like that.

My setup is a Bennett 5.0 front truck with a Tracker RTS 129mm back truck. The front has a 15 degree wedge, the back is dewedged by 10 degrees. I use 75mm wheels.

The front has Khiro bushings, the board initially shipped with orange cone, white barrel, (hanger), orange barrel, cup, nut. That turned out to be a little soft, though -- the orange cone and white barrel seemed to be squeezed out of place (the barrel was hanging over the cone on one side), and I think I got wheelbite because of that. This is the initial setup I mentioned which seemed really easy to pump, since the front truck would sweep sideways very easily.

Edit: I'm ~125lb, in case it helps to know for the bushing setup.

So I changed the bushings to something harder -- I added a cup washer at the bottom and used blue cone, orange barrel, (hanger), orange barrel, cup, nut. This is where it seems much stiffer to me, though perhaps it's not the bushings themselves -- they shouldn't be that much harder, I guess...
I noticed that the orange barrel is slightly hanging over the blue cone again, not as bad as with orange cone/white barrel, but still noticeable. I had to squeeze quite hard to get the nut onto the kingpin initially. (The nut is right on the pin, but no threads are showing above the nut, so I didn't tighten it more)

Should I try replacing the second barrel with a (inverted) cone to reduce the pressure on the bushings? Or is it normal to have the barrel slightly hang over the cone on one side?

I can try going to cup washer, orange cone, orange barrel, (hanger), orange barrel, cup, nut -- does that sound reasonable, or should I keep the blue and try a white instead of orange?

I'm not actually sure what bushings are on the back, it seems to be black (might not be Khiro, though) with a rather thin hourglass-like bushing at the bottom (between cup washer and hanger) and an inverted cone at the top (between cup and nut).

Since I'm asking anyway, does it matter whether the upper cup (under the nut) has the hollow bit facing the nut or whether that's facing the bushings? I noticed it's different for front and back truck. In the front, it's x(y where x is the barrel and y is the nut.

Thanks for all the advice =)

stocago

I usually bond the barrel to the cone so that it doesn't slide or flop over.

Maybe you have stock Tracker bushings in back. Maybe go to a slightly firmer bottom bushing.

Also, your change to slightly firmer bushings although noticeable, aren't much firmer, but at your weight, maybe use a white, either at the bottom or top--try both to see what you prefer, but I'd try on top first. If you have a washer under the cone, don't use one. For the top, try a flat washer. Bushing feel is so personal/subjective so play around a lot.

Moddos

Thanks for the tips.

What does it mean to bond the barrel to the cone, how do you do that? I assume not with glue =)

I'll keep your back bushings tip in mind; I'll try to get the front setup to work well first (just to keep things simple for now).

Actually, when I replaced bushings first I went from orange/white/orange to blue/orange/blue, I only went to blue/orange/orange now. I thought I did feel a large difference... the cup washer shouldn't matter much, would it? I only put it in when I replaced the bushings (I was recommended to do so), I'll try with/without to see how it changes things. Will also try a flat washer.
Cheers!

LDPanda

Actually, using glue to 'bond' two bushings together is just fine, its what i do. Just make sure its a glue that works for plastics (i.e. superglue, krazyglue, etc.). Some people also melt them together with a hot knife or hotplate or something but ive never tried that so i cant speak to it. At 125 lbs Im surprised you found orange,white,orange too soft for you. Im 200 and run blue,white,orange. You might want to try tightening down on the KP nut before making bushing changes but whatever is comfortable for you is best.

It sounds like your rear bushings are stock tracker bushing which are pretty terrible in my opinion. I suggest harder barrel bushings for the rear. Most people seem to like a combination of red and yellow khiros. I personally prefer red venoms but again, whats comfortable for you is best.

Moddos

Aah I think perhaps I found the problem Smile

It looks like people generally cut down the Khiro barrel to make it fit the Bennett, since it's larger (Khiro cone + barrel) than the stock Bennett bushing, if I got this right.

My problem was that the white barrel was 'hanging over' the orange cone, that's why I said they were too soft.
Looking around, I see that it shouldn't really be the bushing hardness that is the problem here, since heavier people do just fine with orange and whites. Tightening the KP nut actually made my problem worse! It squeezed barrel against cone even more, so the barrel was even more deformed.

I think if I can shorten the barrel a little, that problem (barrel hanging over) shouldn't happen, and judging by the comments, I should be able to avoid wheelbite even with orange+white+orange. I think the wheelbite was related to the barrel being deformed (one side was hanging over the cone, the other side wasn't -- wheelbite might have been asymmetric too).

This would also explain why the blue orange orange feels too hard for me.

If nobody tells me that I'm doing anything very silly, I'll try cutting down the white barrel tomorrow and go back to orange/white/orange.
Once that's sorted out I'll replace the stock tracker bushings, I've got lots of spare bushings in my Khiro bushing kit Smile

Thanks a lot guys! I hope this'll fix it. Yay pumping Smile

dustm

Keep in mind your wedge angle will affect the feel of the bushings... A flat truck will feel softer than a + wedged truck on the same bushings because the + wedged truck's hangar pivots farther on the baseplate for a given deck lean angle.

So if your truck is mounted near flat I would not be too surprised that the soft bushing combo felt too soft.

RiPPer

I think everybody above gave you some great advice.

As far as getting your back leg more into the pumping action, I'm working on this too. One thing that seems to be helping is to act as if your rear foot and front foot are trying to twist the deck in different directions. This helps to torque the board and get your hips and core into the movement. I think this action results in the back end swinging out more. Kind of a weird concept and it feel strange at first.

My muscles are not used to this action, or the front foot wiggle either for that matter. So either way I start to tire before going to far. I think just putting in the miles and getting conditioned to the pumping movement is a big factor.

I'm also playing with more unweighting and weighting action by lifting and dropping at knees and hips. There is a lot of good ideas on the "how to pump" section of paved wave. The Gesmer article, the videos, quotes from silverfish and ncdsa are all good places to look for ideas to tweak your technique. I'm still learning and still experimenting with various ideas from those sources.

From what I've seen on other set ups here, you may want to try more front wedging and less rear. It seems that 20 degrees or more in front is not uncommon and reportedly makes pumping easier. 5 to 7 degrees of dewedge in the back seems common. You may have to re-evaluate your bushing choices after changing wedging. Since you have the khiro kit upgrading your rear bushings is a great idea. Around 90a to 93a seems popular for rear bushings, but you are light and might want to go softer. For front bushings Stoked is recommending W-W-W triple stack
for 100 pounds and O-W-O for 150 pounds. So those combos might be worth trying.

Ian the Groove Worshipper

You could also try buying a GPS - I got a Garmin 101 for $60 shipped on Ebay - or doing some timed runs. I thought that I was pumping pretty fast until I got my GPS and found out I was averaging about 8mph. Getting clear objective feedback can really help you guide you toward technique improvements.

Over analyzing technique can be counterproductive when you are getting started. Pumping is all about flow, connection, feeling it not thinking it. Just focus on the flowing feel of a well-connected groove.

Moddos

Thanks again for the comments, I'm going to try the O-W-O again with a shortened white barrel.

Panda: You mentioned you cut the barrel yourself (in another thread); so did I, but mine's really not flat... I'm finding it hard to get it cut nicely given that I have no workshop access and my knives aren't perfect.

Is it OK to glue a somewhat uneven white barrel to the orange cone? The cut end has one side a bit higher than the other (in addition to being generally uneven), I'm not sure whether the weight of me+the board will make the imperfections insignificant or whether it'll make them very noticeable.

Or I can try to use a flat washer between orange cone and white barrel to make up for the uneven-ness...

About the GPS, since I was thinking of getting a device anyway, this is another good reason to do it, I guess Smile

LDPanda

I dont really cut my bushings anymore, i just let them deform. The khiro whites are called marshmallows for a reason, theyre gonna get pretty beat up. As for cutting bushings, i used an extremely sharp knife, probably sharper than anything you have in your kitchen. I usually touch up any cuts i make with some sandpaper (around 80grit) to clean it up a bit. Personally, I think youre better off not cutting your bushings and just gluing them together, using a little extra muscle to get the KP nut tightened down and then letting them break in a bit.

Moddos

Aw, OK. And I spent over an hour cutting and filing this barrel (badly)... ^_^

But is gluing white+orange together really enough to keep the yellow barrel from hanging over one side of the orange barrel?
It's been years since I last glued anything, so I may underestimate how well the bushings stick together under pressure =)

(I'm about to head out to buy glue for rubber stuff)

stridey

I 'think' that Ritchy Carrasco melts his bushings on a hot plate to fuse them together.

He joins two conicals to get an hourglass shape.

RiPPer

I have a skennett with the carasco bushing and I'd agree, mine looks like two orange cones melted together.

For gluing is there a prefered glue? Or a list of glues known to have worked.
I'd hate to accidently destroy a bushing with wrong glue.

LDPanda

The glue i use is called "Plastic Surgery" and from what i can tell its the same as any other super glue. I highly suggest wearing thin latex gloves or something when working with this type of glue as it has no problem at all sticking two of your fingers together. Quick historical note, many of the super glues we use today were developed as an alternative to stiches after surgery. It doesnt take much either and youll want to wipe of any excess quickly as it can build up and leave "hard spots" on your bushings. As a side note, i ive tried several different 'hourglass' setups for the bennet and they always get chewed to bits pretty quickly. I really suggest trying cone,barell over cone,cone but experimentation is always a good thing. I think sk8kings ships thier completes with the hourglass setup becuase they have lots of extra cones left over becuase nobody wants them. (not saying anything bad about sk8kings, richy and maria have always taken good care of me)

pavedwave

Just remember with all the filing and BBQ'd bushings going on, to not inhale any of these fumes or dust. It melts your synapses together which might result in some interesting, new, spontaneous creativity and/or cool-looking hallucinations -- but 99% of the time, just renders ya kinda dumb. Wink

Btw, I typically don't do any bushing chopping or gluing. I just jam the cone+barrel underneath, crank it down and let nature do the rest. Might not be the best method, but works for me and my bushings really do last almost as long as forever but not quite infinity.

Moddos

Alright, after seeing too many experienced people (heavier than me, too) get along fine with orange cone, white barrel, hanger, orange cone, I'll glue together cone and barrel and hope for the best =)

My wheelbite test is to stand on the board and lean on one side until two wheels are in the air, then try to roll backwards/forwards. Does this sound right, or is it too harsh?

I've still got wheelbite even with orange/orange/orange like this, so I suspect I just need more riser or something... I'm using cup washers at bottom and top.

I noticed my cut down barrel only made the wheelbite even worse, since it brought the hanger closer to the board and the un-evenness made it too loose in one direction.

Moddos

Looks like gluing the O cone and W barrel together + 2 degrees of angled riser (for a total of 17 degrees wedging in front) did the trick. I also got a helmet, which helps with the confidence Smile

After a bit of practice I'm also starting to learn different pumping styles. I still have trouble keeping up anything above ~5mph, but I hope I'll get there eventually. I'm also struggling with light inclines, since I can't reliably get the short pumps to work there (I can't maintain the necessary speed for pumping).
I'll try O-W-W and perhaps W-W-O to see whether those would work too, I feel like that might be even better.

About the wedging: There must be a post that already explains the different effect of more/less wedging, i.e., what 15 degrees vs 17 degrees vs 20 degrees would mean for pumping. Does anyone have a link to anything talking about that?
Edit: I found http://pavedwave.myfastforum.org/about469.html , but if there's anything more that is helpful for this, I'd be happy to find out Smile

(I didn't find any sufficiently long bolts yet to try adding another angled riser, but I'll play around with smaller/larger risers angles of what I use now).

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!

LDPanda

More wedging means the hangar moves farther will less pressure. Less wedging means the hangar takes more presssure to move as far. Lots of wedging makes pumping at low speeds easier and helps with hill climbs, Very little wedging is good for downhill stability and high end speed. The guys who are really serious about their cyber mile times are using very little wedging, less than 10*. I use around 20* becuase the area i skate has lots of long slow hill climbs.

Moddos

Thanks for the explanation.

Judging entirely from what I read, it sounds like using the Bennett 4.3 instead of the 5.0 would have the a similar type of effect for pumping as increasing the wedging -- just roughly speaking; of course other factors would also make a difference (truck height, etc.).

Does that sound right?

LDPanda

Simmilar effect but different cause. Basically, if you are doing lots of hill climbs and are more concerned with efficiency and long distance than you are with speed i would go with the 4.3

If youre looking for better speed or the area you live is very flat with very few hill climbs i would prolly go for the 5.0

if youre trying to set record times around your local high school's quarter mile track, the prevailing wisdom at the moment says go for the 6.0.

Its simmilar with wedging, more for distance and ease, less for speed and stability.

Just my 2c tho, theres still lots of experimentation left to do.

stocago

I don't know if you mentioned what wheels you're using, but if they're offset, as an experiment, try flipping them in front and see if that effects your pumping in a positive way, if it makes it easier. I would try this first before buying a 4.3.