| Archive for pavedwave longboarding distance longboarding, flatland pumping, cross-country adventuring, boardwalk cruising, and all things skateboarding and good times |
| Bullwings |
Options to bennett for front trucks?(Virage, Randal, Core..)So what other trucks have you guys tried out for your front pumping trucks?So far, i've tried out three trucks for my front (more if i include different hanger widths): Bennett 6.0 (have a 4.3 haven't tried yet, on my slalom deck) Randal 125 Seismic quick turn 130 and 155 They each have their advantages and disadvantages. -I like the seismics (45 degree) because they feel super stable, but they don't have enough of that tic-tac motion and drain too much energy, even with the bone white springs. The range of motion seems kind of limited (They're great as a stable turn traction truck in the back though - 30 degree, not 45) -The Randal 125 i'm still getting used to. It feels good so far, but it seems like it sits higher up than any of my other trucks. I'm not too sure about the stability, haven't taken it down any hills yet. -Bennett 6.0 - this is still the king so far, i just don't like the stability/dive. I can go down hills, but only if they're really wide and allow me to make huge sweeping carves - the dive still scares me though. I'm still searching for that perfect front truck that'll give me the stability that I liked from the Seismic, but give me the pumping versatility and strength of the Bennett. What other trucks have you guys tried and could possibly recommend giving a shot? |
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| LD skater since 1971 |
I am really starting to like my Tracker 106-mm RTX front truck basically I have all Tracker trucks on my board. They flow nicely and don't dip.
Their is a new truck company out called ACE with a old INDY design it seems all the old school skater and indy lover getting them. They have a 11 size and 00 size that might suit are need. http://www.acetruckmfg.com/ google link on ACE 11 http://www.google.com/search?hl=e...skateboard+trucks&btnG=Search The Slalom! board is even talking about them how the 11 perform great like the old Indy 101's. The only draw back their made in china.The only thing I did not like about Indys was the pivot would some times break right off the hanger in a freestyle set up with tracker clear bushings. I saw it happen in contest run it was the end of his day. But they did turn great as a front truck on a foam Ick stick and Turner summer ski slalom board I got to ride with a tracker rear truck. Grindking also has a 4.5 truck that looks great if you ran smaller wheels. If I remember right the grind kings turn pretty good when the only had the big street truck width. Then Bullet and Speed Demons and Krux all NHS trucks are very cheap except the Krux. Destructo has small truck also. But most of them mentioned except the Ace OO and 11 and the Tracker race trak are low riding trucks. |
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| pavedwave |
funny, i missed this post altogether the first time, now we're talking about it on the other thread 
so you've already been playing with the R125 - thats cool. you might also consider trying a Tracker RTX. I don't really like them for long flat stretches, they seem to sap more energy, but they are kind of a good trade-off between pumpability and downhill stability. also terry mentions the Indy. that's a lot like the Bennett, legend has it in fact that the Indy was an offshoot of the Bennett. some guys I know still ride an Indy front for slalom. they give me the same impression, you need to practice on them a lot to get comfortable with that 'dive' feeling at high speeds. i think you can make a Bennett or Indy work for you at speed, you just have to be more conscious of always "maintaining an edge", else they can go into speed-wobs easier than other trucks. |
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| Bullwings |
Since i last posted on here, i managed to get a hold of a Bennett 5.0, and have really taken a liking to that. Again, the speed wobs and diving is sort of an issue. You really have to be on your game at higher speeds, but i don't like having to think about it since that kind of saps my confidence while riding (and that's like 60% of what speed wobs is).
I just got a century 38 in the mail, and i'll have some lower ride height now, so i'll try giving the Randal 125s a shot again. I'm debating between the 42 and 50 degree base plates. I have a decent number of trucks that i've been playing around with, i just need to find the right balance of ride height, pumpability, and stability. I had the ride height, pumpability, and half way decent stability dial in with my pulse setup, but i ended up selling it to my buddy. Hopefully the century 38 works out for me. i wish seismic had some lighter springs. front trucks are nice, but the lightest springs are still too stiff for LDP flat land pumping. |
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| rodgon |
so has anyone or will anyone try a set of the new grombiz trucks? they seem to be able to adjust on the fly and give you the necesary angles for any pumping needs. i know they just came out with them, but just throwing it out there. heres a pic of them so you can get an idea. i think the smallest you can run them is 139mm, and having rode them on a test cruising board i know they feel like a way smaller truck. ( i dont know why but they do...)
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| angelo_pb |
What are the other front trucks that people have tried?
I was thinking of trying a newer Paris with very little wedging, say 5 degrees. The stock KP angle is 50 degrees. But I wanted to see what others thought. (I can borrow from my Vanguard.) I really like the quality, fit, finish and feel of Paris. In many ways, they are quite opposite of the Bennett. The Bennett trucks just seem so cheaply made and require a complete overhaul the moment you take them out of the box. I realize that the most important thing is efficient pumps and all. But I am curious as to what others' experience has been with front trucks not yet discussed here and in the Setups article. Trial and error is part of the fun, right? But I value others' opinions. How about an Indy 169 and what wedging/bushings? (i can take this off a pool board). Has anyone tried a single Revenge Alpha II? They seem to have a strange geometry. I'm not sure what a "torsion" truck is. Is it like a carver CX ride-wise? Or more like an Original? I like how it has a lock to prevent bite. Not sure if a set of new holes would be required so that wheels line up where they are suppossed to. Any others? I don't have to deal with any real hills, other than causeways and bridges, and i could never pump up those anyway. |
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| pavedwave |
Ones i've tried the most over the last 10 years:
randal 150s front and rear gullwing cruiser 60s front and rear (identical to randal 150s) paris front and rear (identical to randal 150s) seismics (bone white up front) originals (6" for pumping) uptrucks tracker RTX-RTS combo indy slalom-type truck front (bennett knock-off) , indy traditional rear carver c7 carver cx revenge (torsion) exkate (torsion) splitfires front and rear bennett front, something stable rear grombiz, most recent Torsions use a big fat single bushing, and the bushing is "torqued", usually twisted, so it wants to snap back to its original shape, which creates the rebound. The problem I found with Exkates were: 1. bushings blew out and were $20 each to replace and 2. kingpins were skinny and broke too soon. With Revenges, I simply felt limited, the bushing was singular, and you can't really snug them down or loosen them up, what you see is what you get. So just not tweakable enough. Obviously I like the feel of a front Bennett and it came after trying all these trucks out, some for considerable length of time and through lots of breakage and experimentation. And its inevitable that the longer something stays popular, the more people want to look for something else, something they have not yet unexplored --- that's great, awesome and absolutely expected!!! I would love to hear more experiences on the Randal 125's for example, since I only tried Sheldon's out a few times. I'd like to see more people try Splitfires and Airflows, because I still think they're awesome LDP trucks front and rear. I would still actually like Splitfires on distance trips over Bennetts because of the kingpin clearance alone! Grombiz, can't really give them a fair shake until I can try out their other sets of bushings and set up the rear differently than the front. I'd like to try them out as a "system" front and back, since they're so phenomenally adjustable. There are still lots of options out there. The new Octane Virages are out. Functionally, they look a LOT like Splitfires -- but I'm not sure I like the way they put the kingpin down through the plate, so that the threading is where the highest stress point is. From my experience, this is where I've broken every pin or axle, when the threads were positioned at a point of entry. But I'm not trying to throw cold water on this...they do look like awesome trucks, personally I'd just set them up with the pin through the baseplate the opposite direction. 
And hopefully this weekend I'll be testing my buddy's chopped down Radikal Talons! |
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| angelo_pb |
I'm wondering if you could use your clout and influence a truck manufacturer the way you have with board builders. I realize production biz makes that an expensive proposition. But it seems that there is a demand that is growing.
I read that article about the tracker guy acquiring ownership shares of Bennett. Maybe you/us/we could have them design an LDP set thats read roll out of the box. For example, i baseplate that wedges 15 deg and beefed up OEM KP would be a start. But with Tracker and Bennett DNA and a new CEO, maybe they would be receptive. (though i really like the Paris fit and finish). |
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| pavedwave |
I've had some back and forth in the past with Gary Fluitt (SplitFires), but it was more of a feedback on testing off the trails, and some methods to avoid breakage I was experiencing. I hope this issue is solved in the case of these new Virage trucks, because they remind me a lot of the Splitfire system, especially the way I run it, with randal DH plate in the back, and randal 50-degree plate up front. As for designing in "optimal" angles and such, I think every truck should have a good baseline but allow plenty of tweakability-- "out of the box" should only go so far. With so many riders, so many styles, so many decks, all these variables mean the geeks still want to be able to tweak. One of the main reasons I left the Splitfires alone and moved over to Bennetts (well, Bennett-front + Split-rear anyway) was really motivated by price-point and availability. I didn't want to ascribe to the notion that one would "need" to spend $220 for a set of front and rear LDP Splitfires, just to have a good experience-- so some of it was motivated by trucks going out of production, the other was simply wanting to make LDP more accessible to people wanting to get their feet wet and check this out. The more affordable rear Tracker and Seismic were also a part of that logic. The other reason was that the front Bennett was in fact insanely effortless to pump --- with the right bushings. When you can have that efficient an experience on a $20 truck, that says a lot about the value of a classic design. On a whole 'nother tangent, speaking of "whats old is new"... these are basically the first Torsion Trucks which preceded the Baku, the Exkate, and the Revenges, and they were my first skateboard truck, the "Mattel Magnums"! They were a mere blip in the history of skateboarding, but both my dad and my eldest brother worked for Mattel back in their good old days...so that's what I got to ride. 
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| LDPanda |
http://www.viragetrucks.com/
02/08/09 My only questions are where and how much!?!?!? |
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| Nicholas Jackson |
I guess Stridey will have them on his online shop, I believe he is one of the designers.
http://www.octanesport.com/ There is nothing there yet but maybe blast him an email. Nic |
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| Alec |
I believe the 'official' launch will be on Feb 3rd at Cadwell
http://www.octanesport.co.uk/cadwell.html |
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| pavedwave |
No matter what, I'm sure these are going to do quite well with the slalom gang. Have had a little of back and forth with Stridey in the last days, the ideas I tossed his way so far are
1. wider hangar -- he's keeping this one in mind, just means more cost... 2. put a hex-shaped seat underneath bottom of baseplate for inverting the kingpin 3. c-clip on the axle to keep from screwing out (pretty minor, might not even be an issue) Sent this last night "I used to ride the Splitfires exclusively but when they went out of business and my axles continued to break, I needed other solutions and the Bennetts-Trackers-Seismics just fell right into place as a "reasonably priced" truck for the job. Always missed the Splitfires, but longer term it made no sense. ... It would indeed be nice to start with a slightly larger width at least close to 5.0 without relying too heavily on spacers going around the axles to achieve it. I'm curious how much more that would complicate your process? I busted a number of axles (both front and rear) distance riding-testing with the Splits back a few years -- but this was about the same time that Gary was stopping production and Airflow was filling in the gap with their rear-truck. But the context was quite different --- I do believe these axles would have held up fine on the GS / SGS courses -- but we tend to put them in environments that precision trucks don't typically like -- concrete "cattle guards", sidewalk cracks, chipseal pavement, etc... Real road conditions. But I'd always found that spacing-free axles held up great." There has been a "hole" in medium-priced precision truck market since Splitfires left the scene... Stoked to hear about the release! |
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| Batalero |
James, did you try to replace the broken axles with Radikal axles ,they fit in the Splitfire hanger.
Sylvain |
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| pavedwave |
hey sylvain,
to be honest, i just shipped em to Gary so he could check them out, then he replaced right away. great guy to work with. i didn't know they were compatible though... i imagine they're the fine-threaded variety? i just ordered a couple extra axles for my Radikal front, which I discovered are coarse thread. one thing I find though, even though you *can* space the wheels out farther from the hangar by using spacers around elongated axles, you don't really want to max that out, because it puts a lot more load where the axle exits from the hangar. much better to have a hangar width right where you're comfortable, or at least requiring minimal additional spacers. |
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| pavedwave |
The front Virage isn't quite there yet, but these shots and descript of the rears have made the rounds online now...
======== "On 2/9/2009 SamG wrote in from United Kingdom (78.146.nnn.nnn) The production version of the Virage rear truck is nearly with us. These pictures are of the 'RAW' version, where the machining lines have been used as a 'feature'. You'll be able to order them with the sandblast matt finish too, at extra cost. Anodizing will be available in a few weeks. Steering angle is 80 degrees, or rather, '10'... Fixed kingpin. NO spherical bearings. 8mm axles. The bearings are held securely by inbuilt speedrings on axle and hanger. The axles have left-hand and right-hand threads, so any tendency to loosen is transposed on the relevant axle towards tightening. The main advantage of this axle system is the way the bearings are held on pure axle, and because the speedrings are integrated everything fits 'just right'. The current state-of-the-art slalom decks have the rear truck positioned under the kick/stomp pad type rear, which, if you don’t use an angle riser would tilt these by the corresponding distance backwards. Using these shallow angles allows racers to use less risers or riser combinations, so giving a stiffer, more accurate rear turning platform." 
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| LDPanda |
http://www.viragetrucks.com/
These appear to be available for pre-order, BUT ONLY THE REAR. I could be wrong about this, but it doesnt appear that the matching front truck has been released. No offense to octane, but there a several high-end rear trucks avalable, what we need is a new front truck somewhere between a skennet and a radikal in the price range. BTW: dont be fooled by the prices . . . the custom axles cost extra. |
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| Alec |
Tried these out today, front and rear
Only a very short test due to rain stopping play. Usual set-up is a Pulse 2.0 with 17° wedged Bennett 5.0 on the front and 10° dewedged Tracker RT-S on the rear. Purple tangs and Orangatangs. 1st swapped the Bennett out for the Virage and mounted on flat riser. The Virage was set up with the wider axle option. The result was amazing. Then swapped the Tracker for the Virage rear mounted on a 10° wedge (yes wedged, not dewedged) riser. Unfortunately as I said rain stopped play before I had the chance to test completed set-up to it's full potential and then they were taken away from me. 
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| wafflesole |
Straight out the packet. Amazing.
no slop or play and just seem to work. I'm sure there might be a strength issue with having it set up wider, but that will only be proved through testing. 
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| pavedwave |
Yeah I'm seriously looking forward to these. Our way of getting around the rain is a 3-story parking garage, every weekend lately! | ||||||||||
| stocago |
"Designed for maximum response and maneuverability, they're ideal for slalom and long-distance pumping." - from Mile High Skates This is from an email I received. I guess they're new. It kind of reminds me of the Tracker RTX (looks like a straight pivot). It comes in three sizes. http://www.milehighskates.com/catalog/products_new.php |
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| Alec |
Ace hangar on a Core baseplate.
Interesting. |
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| pavedwave |
MHM noting LDP as a selling point.
Even more interesting. 
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| model.citizen |
i've heard of a few people using Indy hangers on Core bases (usually when the Indy base breaks), and apparently it improves the turning. pity about that proud kingping, a la Bennett... 
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| model.citizen |
and this sounds interesting:
"...nylon spacer system helps reduce bushing wear" |
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| stocago |
Since I recently switched from 76mm to 70mm wheels, my proud kingpin grinds daily! 
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| LDPanda |
These look REALLY interesting. Reasonably priced ($35), grade 8 kingpin, fits 2 venoms perfectly (very cool imo), i like the idea of a straight pivot (not sure why, seems strong i guess), and three size options (3.5", 4.5", 5") Could these be a viable bennett alternative? Ill be interested to find out. Hope somebody picks these up soon, im broke as a joke. | ||||||||||
| northcoast |
while we're on the topic of frankentrucks...
take an indy baseplate and put a 2.75" kingpin in, then a standard barrel bottom bushing, and put a venture hanger on top. then, you'll have enough room to put 2 khiro cones on top. feels VERY bennetty, but it's not as tall, and therefore is more prone to wheelbite. |
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| pavedwave |
Cool stuff here, I'd like to hear how that Ace works out and the FrankenVentureIndyTruck as well!
Stridey's sending over some Virages from the UK so I'm planning to clock some mileage before and maybe during the next Ultraskate on 'em. They'd have to show up soon though if I was going to actually ride them on my Mermaid during the event -- doing all your training on Bennetts then flipping over to a quite different front truck on the event is not always a wise move! So we'll see. The rear one is going on that deck for sure though!! I suspect the feel of the Virage is going to be a very welcome, familiar one. Btw Panda let's figure out a day to meet at Tacoma Screw and bring a few loose kingpins, I'm going to knock out a Bennett and bring some grade 8's that I've bought there before. Weds or Thurs afternoon? |
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| LDPanda |
Sounds great, ill give you a call this evening to sure up plans. Ill even cover the financial end if youll do the tinkering  ive never replaced a KP and the one that broke in my bennet is stuck way down inside the baseplate.
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| Alec |
I'd use the Virage front over a Bennett any day. | ||||||||||
| pavedwave |
Without having hammered on one yet, I'm reserving judgement - but extremely hopeful about this truck, because the architecture is more similar to other precision slalom trucks that worked for me in the past. Any impressions? How much did you guys get to pump on it out there? |
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| Alec |
Not much at all really James. Perhaps my Bennett isn't set-up very well although it seems to work. Both Mike Stride and nat rode my Pulse and loved it, Stridey was saying what a nice deck it was and how he's got to get one. Then we put the Virage on the front no wedging, straight off of Mikes slalom board, no tweaks, the difference was phenomenal, just so much smoother, no squeaks, no slop, no Bennett dive just efficent pumping. Don't know how much was down to the Venom bushings or the spherical bearing. All I know is I want one, in fact my Pulse is still in bits as I'm not sure about the Bennett now... |
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| pavedwave |
Thanks for the details. It will be nice to try something "straight out of the box" as the wedging can be a hassle and a chore. As for tweaking, I agree, it's always been more elbow grease getting the Bennett to feel right -- tossing the stock bushings into the "toe-stop" pile, replacing the stock kingpin, and getting the right wedges and bending the bolts to mount it. Though I still think it's a good deal for a "$45 front truck" ($25 base truck + $10 improved bushings + $5 improved kingpin + $5 wedges) and that was kind of my side-purpose in finding an alternative to the Splitfire I was riding in the past. When it comes to the Bennett "dive" and efficient pumping -- I have to say that I still love the feel of the dive when it comes to 10-20mph flatland LDP, and the way it surfs. I liked that feel from the very start. And in light of all the current yak about Bennetts and broken kingpins (and the side-issue that I can't seem to get a hold of them for half a year  ) I still consider the Bennett to be an efficient truck, as I think a little bit of axle slop doesn't makes a huge performance difference for the average Joe. That said, I do have trepidations about the "dive" when using a Bennett at higher speeds, like on a big slalom hill. 25mph++ on that truk can be sketchy, particularly coupled with its low kingpin snagging on obstacles issue! -- which the Virage solves.
Without even stepping on them yet, the huge positives I predict from the Virage are: - Slap it on and go, with little or no wedging - Kingpin clearance to stop asphalt-eating adventures - Crazy grip and power off the rear truck - Higher speeds without the wobbles - Precision axles eliminating slop - Adjustable width (testing this out will be a big focus) - etc etc ... to be discovered! |
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| LDPanda |
Just to play devil's advocate (and im bored at work) heres some counterpoints (also have never stepped on them):
1. The axles screw into the hangar the opposite way causing the point of highest stress to be at the point of lowest strength. Combine that with custom axels (built in spacers etc.) and you could have some very annoying breaks. 2. The way the hangar is drilled where the kingpin goes through leaves little or no room for 'back and forth" slop. That is, if for some reason the hangar moves back or forth (rather than side to side) it will hit the hangar causing damage to the kingpin. This could be solved easily with a little dremel work. 3. As with any precision milled hardware, we put our boards through a lot more damage with a lot less maintenance than a slalom racer. If a little dirt happens to get between your perfect 8mm axles and your bearings, they may freeze in place and be difficult to remove. Also, $300+ in addition to our already expensive decks and wheels is pretty steep considering the how much abuse ldpers put their gear thru. Again, im just playing devil's advocate and ive never even seen the trucks in person, so take this with a handful of salt. |
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| model.citizen |
yeah, apart from the low kingpin this is the one thing that scares the crud outta me when going for a ride. i nearly always have to bomb some kinda 20-30mph hill on the way somewhere, and i always feel that if i'm not totally concentrating on what i'm doing the Bennett dive will throw me off. having said that straight bombing isn't too nasty as long as i keep that front truck under control! but i always feel that one false move and it's all over rover. |
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| stridey |
Whilst not wanting to turn this forum or this thread into any form of plug I'll restrict my response to your concerns:
The axles do not screw in at all. They go through a smooth hole. Until the axle is tightened the axle is under no stress. As we have eliminated the stress point at the point of greatest leverage we hope these are actually stronger than screwed in axles.
Not sure what you mean, in the production version the hole for the kingpin is actually scalloped on the edge away from the pivot on the outside edge of the hanger. This is to allow the hanger to plop over a fixed kingpin. The production version hole is the one you need to look at, and the website will be updated as it does show the version 1 hole. With the way the bottom bushing is held in a dish sideways or fore/aft movement is actually restricted by the choice of barrel bushing. We would anticipate riders use stiff bushings on a rear in any case. On the front truck (and the rear) I would expect the cushioning effect of the pivot bushing to prevent damage to the kingpin. The axles should remove from the hanger fairly easily, there is more leeway than on the axle to bearing interface. If the wheel does get stuck on the precision axle it is easy to push down on the wheel downwards with some force on the ground, and if the outside bearing did get stuck you can put an adjustable spanner over the head, resting on the bearing flat side, thus preventing damage to the seals, which is what happens if bearings get stuck on the inside of GOGs and Rads and you resort to a screwdriver. As for cost, I have sent over sets of regular off the shelf bolts, which I think will be what LDPers may go for. These have less slop than imperial axles, but are marginally less accurate than precision milled axles. These are replaceable from hardware stores for a dollar, and if you want them cut to improve the shaft smooth section than its a buck at a machine shop, or 5 minutes with a saw. Yes, they will never be cheap, but if the optimal LDP truck is a derivative of a high end slalom truck, but that LDPers need a beefy ride, then with luck and development the Virage may fit a niche. I developed the rear truck first as in slalom there was a need for a rear alternative at less cost than the awesome GOG adjustable. The front takes elements we learnt from on the rear, with extra work on the spherical and we have been pleased with progress so far. Changes at this stage can only improve the product, but does not affect machining costs. So far. Now, if you break a kingpin on a high end truck like GOG or Rad you have to wait for a replacement. With the Virage you can get kingpins everywhere. As for price, well its all about choice. You can choose to ride what you like, if you prefer the Virages then the cost whilst not inconsiderable could be considered worthwhile, when your 25miles in to a long run with a smile on your face. |
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| LDPanda |
Wow, thanks for the great response. Please understand that i meant no offense, i just didnt want this thread to get too one-sided (and i needed some distraction from work). I assume if youre sending some to James that ill get a chance to try these for myself and have a more informed opinion soon. I look forward to it. | ||||||||||
| pavedwave |
Michael, welcome! Great to hear from you here 'on the board'
Seriously lookin forward to the sun and dryness tomorrow for the maiden voyage -- and Panda here has now had a surprise look at the trucks, on my commute home we crossed paths as I was carting them home! I'm glad to see this Q & A -- devils advocate is a sign of some good raw scrutiny and I'm sure that once I pull these apart over the weekend at the garage as we're changing up wheels, a lot of this will be answered there as well. The Wow factor was instant-- I work with a bunch of embedded engineers who don't skate, but they're used to seeing my boards and gear -- they were commenting on how "sharp and sleek" the machining is on these. This first setup I went with 70mm's to see how little riser I could get away with, get a feel for the bushings, and try out the narrowest width first. Just had enough time to get it together, will post impressions once I get out! 
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| cappa |
virage
Narrowest width? So there's a wider hanger as well? They look awesome. Look forward to your impressions. |
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| RiPPer |
Is the Virage front available for purchase yet? What is a front and rear set likely to cost in US dollars?
What kind of riser is needed/recommended for 75-77mm wheels? They look awesome in the photos. An LDP truck that can handle hills and speed a bit better than the standard bennett would be a big plus. Very interested to read JP's thoughts on these after he gets to give them a good test. Same with anyone else who gets to try them. The impressions so far seem great. |
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| stridey |
The fronts are 'nearly' there....the final 10% takes 300% of the time!
As for riser, I am going to say 1/4 -1/2" inch, but it depends on board of course. On the front the spherical reaches its limit of turning before 70mm wheels would hit the deck. Becuase these trucks are kingpin forward they do turn differently to a Bennet, and similar to Racing Gogs and Rads. With correct bushing choice you should be at the limit of 'squidge' before rubbage...if that makes sense(!?) Cost, marginally more for the front as we work on the spherical, to allow it to go over a fixed, grade 8 (US) kingpin ,but not majorly so. And reading the papers today the dollar will likely strengthen even more against the pound. At the moment its $1.33 to £1, and was a $2 9 months ago.....Dont forget, these use American kingpins and pivot cups, proud to say they are 2% American (tee hee) . From slalom we have learned that a good quality, true and well set up 104mm truck should be stable enough for a great deal of speed, and the Virages are bing tested with an aim to determine whether we make wider hangers, or use axle extenders. Neither are great problems to machine. Personally I feel for LDP the cutdown off the shelf axles will be the ones you guys go for, once we prove that the regula threaded nuts DONT undo unduly, or dangerously. I am as keen as you are to see these being tested in the real world and on a long trail...In fact I wish it was me! Fingers crossed for testing. W e know they work as slalom trucks, so I do feel LDP might be good too. |
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| model.citizen |
has anyone thought of taking a Randal 150/180, trimming off the hanger material to get it down to a 129, then cut and re-thread the axles?
just thinking, stability would be good, would this be viable? i'm still looking at those Core/Ace trucks...interesting. looks all dependent on how the pivot sits in the cup - the Ace hangers look like the pivot is a bit longer and as such can sit in the pivot cup at a different angle without fouling. i wonder if other truck hangers would work, 'cause those Core trucks are cheap and plentiful. |
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| stridey |
We have tested a Randal to similar to what you describe.These are 125 cut down to 104mm. and faced. The axles remain the same but there is a 10mm machined spacer designed to go under the nut or to add width.
The differences in the relationship between pivot to king pin distance and the amount the axle is forward of the mean point does seem to reduce turning compared to a Gog or Rad, but is not bad at all. Surpisingly, not having a spherical didnt give as much sideways slop as we expected, the Randals seemed to seat the bushing nicely. also the pivot is large, which I dont think aids turning at all. All in all, worth experimenting with. 
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| model.citizen |
hell, i didn't know Randalls came in 125s...
good to see it's an option tho, that 104 looks nice. has anyone tried a "standard" truck hanger in a Bennett baseplate, or a Bennett hanger in a standard truck base? |
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| RiPPer |
Besides the modded randals above there also the Skandal Trucks by SK8Kings, which is 108mm (106 in the pic, new ones are 108) cut down randal w/35 degree plate for rear or 42 plate for front. I haven't tried them but I'd very curious as to how they compare to a bennett/airflow combo or the Virages. Anyway its good to see more options on the market, should make for better performance and value in the long run....or sooner. Thanks to all of you who develop, manufacture, market, purchase, test and ride these products. It's a great niche of a great sport. I can see some bigger companies starting to develop LDP versions of their trucks, wheels and decks. Most LDP specific gear at the moment seems to either custom or high end, as far decks. There is no LDP specific truck or wheel yet I guess. Untill some smart truck and wheel maker comes out with the Paved Wave James Peters Signature LDP trucks and wheels. The future is bright for LDP! 
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| Crake |
Those (the Virages) look extremely promising... | ||||||||||
| pavedwave |
Today went awesome. Front had a familiar feeling-- precision is nice. Durable precision is even better! I already found myself mentally not dodging the roots in the asphalt quite as much, knowing I had the extra clearance to handle it. Overall the setup felt more like a sprinter, with a lot of power potential. But the real goal of the first setup was to just get on it right away and get a feel for the cadence in the trucks, so I was using an older, non-concaved Mermaid and smaller, 70mm wheels -- two elements that will change for the next one.
I'm going to work on getting the front loosened up a bit more changing about the bushings, and possibly even trying some old tried and true bushings. Getting this front dialed will take a couple more rides I think, and after that the miles are going to start racking up. Swapped the Venoms around -- the modified blue cone is now on the top, one of my Venom blue barrels on top. Will explain a lot more later about impressions while tinkering and assembling the trucks. Here's the other mods: Adding 3mm spacers to rear (widen 6mm more) Adding 5mm spacers to front (widen 10mm more) Total width of front hangar is now just slightly wider than 4.3 Bennett. Total width outer edge-edge of wheels mounted is 8" (front & back) Same risers as today's board, but will run with 76mm wheels tomorrow, I don't think there will be any wheelbite issues. Stoked about that! - 1.8" rubber shock pad + 1/4" hard flat riser Rear - 1/8" rubber shock pad + 3/16" hard flat riser Front Height from ground to top of deck is roughly 4.75". Switched to my main board with concave and camber. 
I'm taking it somewhat easy, since it's just one week before the Ultraskate and my body's tuned into the Bennett setup. But I also train a lot more holistically now with all kinds of exercise and muscle sets, so I look forward to mixing it up a bit. Today did the one-way commute, 13 miles, and will likely do the same tomorrow. I'll be sleeping soundly knowing its sunny another day or so! |
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| wafflesole |
knew you'd like them! | ||||||||||
| Ian the Groove Worshipper |
When the kingpin begins to approach parallel to the ground, I wonder if it is more prone to breaking.
I'll be looking forward to hearing how they hold up over the miles. |
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| stridey |
You and me both! Initially the Virage was designed to be an alternative to other CNC trucks, but using a regular grade 8 kingpin. This is because on a Radikal you must screw the kingpin in and out to remove the hanger and bushings. Ideally this should be to a specific torque, though I did find ONE skater who had the appropriate tool, knowledge and inclination to do that. A GOG uses a machined kingpin that tapers at the end, this is to allow the spherical bearing to plop over the top of the fixed kingpin. We solved the conundrum of getting the hanger over the kingpin by scalloping the spherical bearings collar, rather than modify the kingpin or resort to a screw in type. So, we use a regular (Khiro grade 8 kingpin) . I have looked at quite a few longboard trucks of the kingpin forward design and been amazed to find that the kingpins vary in quality. Some have longer screw thread, some have the shaft under the head finned so they fix in hard when inserted after a baseplate has been molded. The regular Khiro kingpin is inserted in a press into the baseplate, which does mean at the moment it cant be flipped, but this does eliminate a weak point where where the kingpins thread is right at the base of the baseplate. So, looking at the hanger we would expect the weak(er) points to be at the point where the spherical is, but we hope that the choice of grade 8 where there is a small amount of bending over a brittle titanium kingpin, and also the fact we use a regular pivot cup so that shocks arn't transmitted through a spherical should give some form of dampenning. thats the theory.... We all know the real world is the place where it matters. I cant see any reason why the Virage would be any more prone that Gogs or Rads, but we have the added benefit that replacing a kingpin each year which is recommended by may skaters , isnt a big ticket item. But you are entirely right, I have exactly the same concerns as you, I dont think its necesarily the angle of the kingpin that is important, but the form in which the strains take, as witnessed by broken kingpins on Bennetts. However that may be because more Bennetts are used by people who are more likely to break them than anything else. at least by using a standard Grade 8 kingpin we have a good starting point, a known quantity. I am still shocked to find European sellers of skate gear selling 'Grade 8' when what they are selling is 'Scale 8.8' which is a different scale, and you really need 10.9 to match the US standard of grade 8. You MUST look for 6 lines on the head of the bolt to be sure you have the right one, as Scale 8.8 is equivelant to US Grade 5. |
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| pavedwave |
I kinda knew I would too.
Several years ago when I switched to a precision rear truck off my Tracker, it was on a certain slalom course that had this really nasty offset. Every single time I tried to make that cone instead of just criddling it, I slid. Like 10 times in a row. That same day I popped the RTS off and tried out my new Splitfire rear -- and nailed that turn the first time -- just stuck it. Sold instantly on the traction and performance. A few years later, the rumors were swirling that the Splits would no longer be produced. At the same time, I was seeing a lot of people wanting to set up LDP's but not wanting to drop $130 or so on their rear truck. So what really got me testing out RTS's and Seismics was the desire to make this all a wee bit more accessible for people to try out, see if they liked it, and decide to splurge a little more on performance later. This was also heavily tied to LBL and Subsonic wanting to set up LDP completes that were more affordable -- not to mention available! The Splits finally went out of production, but since I still had a small handful of them for slalom, I continued to ride them ALL the time. But it was the "untouchable" truck, because the only way you could buy them was used. Now, I realize the Virage is like a Split, but it has significant design differences both in angles and what I would consider some huge improvements in axles. I'm glad it's far from a "Splitfire replica", because it's cool to figure out exactly what I like about this truck now that I miss on the Split. The pre-dialed angle on the front baseplate is huge. Slap it on and go is a pretty compelling thing. I'm still figuring out how little riser I can get away with, even with big wheels!! And one flaw with the Splits both front and rear, is that over time, I (and my buddy Patrick) were breaking axles. I think this was a combination of age and fatigue, the use of extra spacers to maximize width, and also that the threading was close to where the axle exited the hangar. And to be fair, I'm pretty sure that there were no other axle breakages occurring -- because I don't think anyone was really beating up their Splitfires on the horrible "courses" that we did for LDP. My slalom buddies would wince when they saw how pocked-up my hangars were from rocks and the occasional asphalt bumps that nicked and scarred my "rare" Splitfire hangars, but what could I do... I think the Virage is already solving these issues. Setting up wheels on this with the inverted axle design takes a little getting used to, but I think in the long run (and LDP is definitely a long run) putting the highest stress point on the axle right in the middle of the smooth shank is really smart. And being able to swap out the axles with ease, and with common materials from a machine shop, is going to be a big plus down the road. With this 2nd setup that I'm on, I was able to pump a fast ride home from work yesterday. The slight, additional spacers on the hangars and a bushing change (Venom Stim bottom - thank you Panda! - Venom barrel top) got the rear truck feeling real grippy. I'm currently still working out what exact bushing combo will get the front truck to "snap" back to center harder, but at the same time, stay loose. I'll yak a lot more with you offline about this point Michael!! One main difference you'll feel with this front is the "darting precision" of every turn -- unlike the "diving, surfy" feeling of the Bennett. I like both, and it does make me switch up my technique a little. What's cool is that the Virage has picked up where the Split left off. I'm just tripping on the thought that went into the "scooped" spherical bearing. There's so many angles to this... I need to stop yappin and get riding again. Tomorrow morning the CSA crew will get their first look! |
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| pavedwave |
Yowza---- Night and Day
Just swapped out the blue Venoms to Khiro whites (barrel bottom with small washer, Bitch top) and for my weight, it rocks!! More comin... we're off to breakfast |
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| wafflesole |
so so good to read. Mike, once again, hats off to you. It's looking good for LDP too! | ||||||||||
| LDPanda |
I got a chance to ride these at our 'virage at the garage' sesh this morning. I didnt spend too much time on them becuase i had my own wrenching to do, but heres some of my impressions.
1. The rear is excellent, very grippy, very smooth, very precise. I fully expect the rear virage to become an industry standard. As good or better than my airflow. 2. The front is . . . . different. It doesnt feel at all like a bennett and ive gotten very used to the bennett feel. I found it to be very stable, it would be an excellent cross-country pumping truck with the downhill stability and high kingpin clearance. I could see using this for an STP or RSVP style ride. I found it to excel for a short, efficient pump, the wiggle style that is great for very long distances. For a wider, surfier pump, i didnt like the feel as much. I felt like the range of movement was much more restricted as opposed to a bennett. I think that i might get bored with a virage on the front simply becuase it 'cut off' acess to some of the styles of pumping i use. 3. Tinkering with the truck appeared to be more time consuming than tinkering with more standard trucks, its a minor issue and may be true of all trucks with spherical bearings, im not sure. Overall impressions: I feel like the front truck would be great for slalom racing or somone like barefoot ted who uses the same pumping style for hours on end, but for me its just not right, i dont like the restricted feel. The rear truck is excellent and will probably be the next rear truck i buy. |
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| pavedwave |
Comparing a Virage front to Bennett, this is where the influence of the deck's flex really shines. A Bennett will make even the stiffest decks dive, surf, and slash -- and relies heavily on the bushing setup for rebound. Where the Virage type of truck's turn might seem a bit more restrictive, it forces more power to come from the flex and rebound out of the deck itself, especially at the slower speeds in LDP. In downhill slalom, these differences are not quite as dramatic, because gravity's add of speed and finesse gets factored in. I think widening the Virage hangar, and getting the right bushings dialed in, will make this setup more versatile especially on the faster end of the LDP scale. Once the next Ultra is over, we need to get this board out to a faster cruising speed on the open trail and I think it'll be more clear what I'm talking about here.
I also have a heavy bias toward the "surf style" of ride that the Bennett offers and which I've also come to thoroughly dig -- I know this truck won't give me that same divey feel. But it offers even more positives that I gave up when I stopped riding my Splits a couple years ago, and I think a slightly wider hangar will help toward this end, allowing bigger, surfier turns. I'll also be exploring some slight modifications in angle -- a little more and a little less, although I do think this 60-degree plate is right in that sweet zone. Although I know the Venoms perform quite well, I found the white barrel Khiro bottom + washer (for spacing) and white Bitch Khiro on top to work a lot snappier than the blue Venoms I was fighting against. The Venoms felt like they were restricting the hangar too much, but I think this is only because of their sheer size underneath, while the white Khiros let the truck go a little loose like I'm used to, and finally I can feel the range of motion more accurately. I'm still working out the "just right" set of bushings for my weight and style -- this will vary of course with people and weight ranges. 
One thing I'll try later is switching out to a longer kingpin, to be able to put an additional bushing on the top. This is something Gary Fluitt used to do on his Splitfires, and the additional "meat" of the bushing gave the truck better spring back to center. I may try an orange Khiro barrel on bottom, plus a white barrel AND white cone on the top. Somehow I think this might give the truck a faster, more positive return to center without simply just being stiff. The CSA crew was impressed with the rear truck. For yesterday's session I set up on a stiffer LDP Walkabout so at least everyone could try it out, since my Roe is a bit too flexy for my bigger friends. 
Btw, a huge shout out to Panda for being my Bushing Pimp on this. I'm just a po' tester with limited supplies on hand right now. Thank you Dave! |
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| LDPanda |
LDPanda (aka Dave): Bushing Pimp to the stars. 
Right now i think you and patrick have my extra venom eliminators, glenn has some of my khiros and some of my trackers, youve got one of my white bitches (ive got so many, its hard to keep them all in line). Theyre spilling out of the sandwich baggy i usually have  time to upgrade to a larger bag to carry my millions of bushings. Its all about trail and error (tee hee, fortuitous typo)
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| stridey |
I am SO thrilled you are getting to give them a really good shakedown!
I am loving the comments and feedback, and ALL of it is noted for future reference. Brillliant. I think we all know no one truck can do everything (hence we use different front and back) and what a boring world it would be if that was the case.... Anyway, the great thing is that the feedback you give me can all be incorported in future designs, nothing is impossible. Have fun! |
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| pavedwave |
The trucks have been christened in true Northwest fashion this week, a number of times
With the Ultra coming up this weekend, I intended to only ride these a wee bit, then get back to the setup my body's gotten in tune with (the old adage...don't change horses...) But it's more like a blast from a few years past and I'm absolutely diggin' this setup now!! Got them back on my Roe for the last few days' commutes, and with only a single thin rubber shock pad on the front, the height at the nose is 4 1/8", and the rear is at a straight 4" (that was a surprise -- I plan to put another thin riser there to go at least even.) As such, it's the lowest topmount pumper I've ever had set up with 76mm Gumballs and zero wheelbite. The rest is about distance and durability, and from all I've seen and experienced on this type of truck in the past, seems like that's where the biggest improvements have been made. After this weekend these will go back on a stiffer deck so more of my "big buddies" can check them out. |
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| blake |
what about a not stiff deck so your lighter freind can ride it. | ||||||||||
| LDPanda |
I know he has them on his light flex mermaid right now. Its wayyyyy to light for me to ride, prolly pretty nice for you. Even the LBL was light for me, i had to keep my front foot on the bolts and take a really wide stance to feel comfortable. I like how little riser it takes to use these virages, JPs setup is lower than would be possible with a bennett even with if you bolted the baseplate straight to the deck. Would be nice for a topmount push/pump combo. | ||||||||||
| blake |
yeah if he just brings a stiff deck i will just throw my weight around on it. thats the advantage of being tall.
**edit** i posted what you said up NWLB on the Custom LDP specific truck page |
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| egret |
Pavedwave. Those Virages you're testing are the LDP ones, not the ones on Octane currently, right? | ||||||||||
| LDPanda |
Theyre the production model (i.e. you can order them from viragetrucks.com) with one slight exception. The baseplate he has for the front truck is 60*, i believe the production model is only 50*. | ||||||||||
| wafflesole |
production is 55 i think. could be wrong. | ||||||||||
| stridey |
Waffle is quite right , its 55 for the slalom front. We sent over a 60 degree prototype front and a production rear setup. However with feedback and advice we hope to produce an LDP specific width hanger, where the axles will be longer, in a wider hanger, with room for a little spacing if wanted. The longer axle hole would provide even more strength.
So far the LDP has been on tweaked Virages, a 60 degree baseplate, (I sent a 45 as well), not LDP specific ones. Angles for the rear and the front can be revised too for the LDP version, especially as most LDP decks don't have a kick rear like the slalomers. I hope to have a revised set or two for test within 3 weeks. ...yes, thats 'sets' Waffle.... (!) Once agian, I am thrilled at the way the testing process has worked so far. To my mind if the truck can run 80 plus miles with the way you LDP guys ride, then the slalomers can learn from this too. The idea of a precision feeling truck that can cope with bumps and lumps has to be a good thing. |
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| pavedwave |
I'm optimistic that the lumps and bumps won't even be an issue. Drier days are coming and I'm expecting a few hundred miles before taking these apart to look again! I keep a daily mileage blog going over here ( http://pavedwave.myfastforum.org/about40.html ) and these are somewhere around 160 miles at the moment. I really like the 60 degrees and will play with a wedge + the 45 on my slalom deck to shake things up. Adding an extra inch of hangar width will make all the difference for the higher cadences / faster pumps, though it may also require just a touch of riser considering the wheels will have a slightly wider turning range. |
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| randelpink03 |
After reading through this whole thread, my interest level has dramatically increased towards the new Virage trucks. I would be looking at matching the front and rear trucks together, but at a staggering $325+ for the pair, it is out of my price range.
I am currently running a 08 mermaid with a skennet front and 129mm RTS rear and love the setup. I would want to swap the RTS for a narrower, more traction giving, lower base plate angle, slalom induced truck. So maybe just a rear is in order. My question to Stridey is the LDP specific truck something looked to be completed by the end of summer, or is it merely just an idea not started yet on the drawing board? If/when you guys do start to make something would pricing be similar to your current front and rear? |
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| stridey |
The specifications for an LDP specific version, front and rear will be handed over by weeks end. Then it is a lead time of 2 weeks max to get them back. Specifications to be signed off include hanger width, height and angle of baseplates, and front kingpin length.
Once those sets of trucks are road tested we are only 2 weeks max away from supplying customer orders. Pricing, the price you are saying is for a pair of slalom versions, we would envisage LDP ers to specify the standard axles which would shave £35 ($50) off that figure. And trucks can be bought singly. Not cheap, nope. Will never be, as they are machined, accurate, cnc'd items. But I think that as testing has shown they are capable of being a considered choice for some. With slalom, performance is the key, price is a consideration and the Virages compare favourably with other CNC'd trucks out there. If we compare skating to , say mountainbiking, the price of decks, wheels, trucks, work out to be very low. Many mountain bikers of all standards upgrade equipment to suit their own budgets, not always abilities. In the great scheme of things I hope the Virages will validate LDP, and encourage others to perhaps develop, modify, invent, other trucks. Thats the fun in it for me. I hope some LDPers will choose Virages, and if I can reduce prices we will do. The 'profit' is not the motivating force. I make more money selling wheels and a set of decent bearings! |
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| randelpink03 |
Wow I didn't realize you guys could crank out production that quick! You guys are relatively well priced when compared to some of the other cnc'd truck makers. For instance, there is a GOG rear I believe that sells for the same price as your front and rear combo!! Which is crazy in my mind, but slalom is a far more precise and maintenance oriented niche.
Longboarding in general is a far less expensive hobby than lets say mountain biking and what not. But expanding ones quiver is a highly contagious and addictive endeavor. I started out with 2 decks. Now I have a board for pretty much every discipline for longboarding, and some I have more than one. This is when the hobby starts to add up. I hope that the LDP market starts to expand in the realm of it being a cheap and highly aerobic form of transportation. And for anyone that has already experienced it, the shear joy of being able to ride a surf influenced board on pavement. Best of luck to guys at Virage/Octane! I will be keeping my eyes out for your LDP trucks and will start setting aside some $ for the time being. Thanks for your input. |
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| egret |
Virages have definately piqued my interest from the standpoing of clearance alone and if the board can be lower too that's icing. I seem to get slammed on the ground at random and it hurts even with helmet and wristguards. 325 for a little peace of mind doesn't seem so bad and seems fair for the work involved. At the same time it's the exchange rate I'm afraid about.
And the wait, ha ha. |
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| wafflesole |
mike sent me this...
http://octanesport.co.uk/VirageLDP.html look good huh? |
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| LDPanda |
Very cool. Im wondering a few things:
Why more angle on the rear truck? becuase we're not mounting on the tail i presume? Why more height on the rear truck? I know James is running them both with a small shockpad and it seems to be working out well. Will the three inch kp allow for a barell bottom, barell and cone top? is that the intended setup? Anyway, its awesome to see a truck designer embracing the LDP community like this, great work Stridey. |
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| pavedwave |
The rear height is definitely going to be a plus, I think this came from the testing findings so far. You might not have noticed, but I've actually been setting up with a small flat riser in the back to make it level with the front, which is running no riser other than a rubber shock pad.
And yes the longer pin also comes from the desire to get more "meat" on the skewer
Btw, with the latest setup, I'm finding the "carve" size orange Venom to fit quite nicely in the bottom without need for washers, will see how she rides today! Seriously stoked to see the page! |
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| stridey |
thanks!
Exactly right. On the slalom models we tested here we found mounting under tail was best with flat riser or minimal wedging. My concern with wider hangers is even greater leverage, and a shallower angle would suit many riders, and with light wedging would suit riders who prefer and are capable of utilising very flat running rear trucks, without alienating riders coming from a perhaps more turny upgrade path.
Again with wider hangers coupled with with a more angled kingpin there is more leverage, and thus more lean. You can order the rear truck with the Slalom baseplate (I'll add that option and explanation on the website tomorrow) and I also think some slalomers will order the LDP baseplate...
Thats the idea. I did ponder/hesitate/mull over using the 55 degree baseplate on the front, but with the 60 it helps keep the kingpin front from the road a bit more, so we can use longer kingpins. This would increase the length by 1/2" , sufficient for a greater choice of bushings. We may add another 1/4" there, Or offer it as an option.
Mmm. Less of the embracing please, what with MY reputation.....! |
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| randelpink03 |
These sound great stridey! I cant believe you already made this happen...
Cant wait to read a full review on the trucks after someone thrashes them. |
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| pavedwave |
195 miles and climbing. Eventually I'll start up a "review" thread.
I did run into some old familiar clicking sounds coming from the front truck in the last couple days. I'm not exactly sure where this emanates from but my initial theory is it's the inside "lip" of the bottom bushing snapping off the edge of the spherical bearing -- probably nothing to be concerned with. The last couple days I've also had the pleasure of pumping these through the rain, so I wonder if the moisture exacerbates that. It's something I remember running into with the splitfire pros but not the splitfires that didn't have the spherical. |
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| stridey |
The spherical bearing is supplied to us with a teflon liner, that actually makes them very stiff. We leave that in when machining the scallop in the ring,as it helps keep the inner away from the machining, but remove the teflon ring by soaking in paint stripper...washing in white spirit, and scraping the threads/teflon out with a scalpel..then soaking in white spirit, drying then spraying with light oil.
I mention this as if your riding them in the rain, you may want to drop a little oil in there every now and again...certainly before laying up for a while. Removing the teflon does make them very loose, but not jiggelly. The teflon made them so stiff they wouldnt return to centre. You can buy non lined sphericals, but economies of scale make the teflon lined ones cheaper here. |
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| WiZzY |
I can't wait to try them out. The new board is ready and waiting.
One question though: is there a need for further adjusting the angles or is it best to try them out just the way they are build? |
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| pavedwave |
So far the 60-degree front has been working well enough that I haven't felt the need to wedge it any more or less, although for the sake of testing I plan to play with angles later. The rear I've dewedged just a touch and I like it. But "out of the box" they work great - my initial focus was just to see how well they worked without any tinkering.
Note the front does feel quite different from the Bennett -- it's more of a precise, tic-tac feel, and it will take some adjusting if you haven't spent much time on 'randal-like' trucks before. |
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| wafflesole |
graphite? orange? |
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| 96fade |
Mile High Skates is selling hybrid Ace 11's and 22's (Ace hangar with Core baseplate). Has anyone tried these as a front truck on an LDP setup? How much wedging would you use? My guess is to use less wedging than for a Bennett, but I really have no idea. | ||||||||||
| LDPanda |
Ive been planning to try those (the ace 11) it seems like a nice comprimise between a 4.3 hangar and a 5.0. I spent all my extra money on reflex bushing and wheels this month tho If you end up trying them let us know how they work out, i for one would be really curious.
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| model.citizen |
from what i understand of them, the higher Ace hanger allows the use of larger bushings, and also allows the hanger to tip further side-to-side. i'd doubt that it'll have anywhere near the "dive" of a Bennett, but i'd say you'll still need to wedge the front about the same. pure speculation on my part though, based on what angles and such i can see on the pix of the truck. some pool skaters swap to Core baseplates on their Indy trucks (usually when the Indy baseplate breaks), apparently it improves the turning... it would be nice to have something "cheap" that mellows out the Bennett dive - would make bombing hills during an LDP session more stable and comfortable. |
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| 96fade |
I have a set of hybrid Indy 215's and a set of ACE 00's on a mini that I love. When I get a chance I'll use one the Ace hangars with a core baseplate. It's going to be a bit narrow- I think the Ace 00 hangars are 95mm, but maybe it would at least give me a feel for them. I'll let you know if I try it. | ||||||||||
| pavedwave |
I hope for a lot less rain riding, but i'll try the oil anyway since the trucks will be apart again in a few minutes! I changed the Virages over to a slalom setup for the weekend and got a lot more people on them (down in Salem) on a decently fast hill. great times, everyone dug the feel and stability at speed. the tight course was a bit too tight for the way I had these set up, but the board worked well even for the groms on the "big" course. this weekend I gleaned a lot about the spherical. last Saturday morning did a 15-mile blast out to a park and back on a perfectly dry trail -- except for about an hour into it, on the return, where the whole trail was a huge puddle from a morning sprinkler system. a minute after the puddle, the clicking started again. just after that ride I took everything apart and washed the crud off for this weekend's LDP-to-slalom board swap. especially some new findings around the spherical, pin, and hangar, which I'll go into later, I shot you some feedback on that michael. the trucks are now around the 210 mile point so I'll be checking these areas with more frequency. TS board on top, GS board on bottom. great times on the hill yesterday!! 
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| blake |
I WANT THOSE BOARDS!!!!! MOSTLY THE TRUCKS BUT THE BOARDS WOULD BE NICE TOO | ||||||||||
| model.citizen |
my mutant truck "creation"back to these hybrid truck ideas (eg Ace+Core), i replaced the trucks on my usual bowl board (39" gravity) with a mutant combo of an unbranded 169 hanger on a Grindking baseplate, with a stock (ie useless) Indy orange cone up top and a cup washer and large Bennett barrel at the botom.result? carve heaven. the mutants turn almost as well (possibly just as well, i haven't really measured turn angles) as a set of 5.0 Bennetts, without the dive. actually they turned so damn well i had to swap out the rear mutant back to a Tracker 6track to stop the back squirreling out so much. i don't think i'll try them for LDP though, 169 feels too large, especially if paired with sideset wheels. 
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| oiledwonk |
long time reader; first time poster. I just ordered the MHS hybrid 22 to replace a bennett 5.0. looking to escape the bennett dive and the kingpin issues. going to try khiro barrels and reflex bushings. I'll post my findings in a couple days. | ||||||||||
| stocago |
Looking forward to your review. I've been curious about how it compares to the Bennett, as well as the Tracker RT-X. I think the MHS hybrids come with conical Sabre bushings that might feel great as is, but tinkering with bushings and dialing it in is so much fun. | ||||||||||
| oiledwonk |
the softest sabres that Mark had were 86s which I fear are too hard for my 150lbs. I am going to try Khiro white/orange barrel combos and a reflex 74 barrell for s+g's. | ||||||||||
| stocago |
I'm betting that because the Sabres are conical and also very reboundy that that duro might work quite nicely. I also weigh 150 and have been surprised at how some of the newer reflex-type bushings feel, especially the tall abec cones. Meaty+reboundy=turny. But decide for yourself. Bushings are so personal. | ||||||||||
| stocago |
To compare to a Bennett 6.0, I got a MHS Hybrid 55, which is actually about 1/3-inch wider. I still need to play around a little more with the wedging, but it feels pretty good with 8 degrees. I had this deck set up with a 6.0 and 11*, so I tried that first, then went to 15* and hated it, so I settled with the 8*. I want to try 5* next, then maybe 11* again.
It feels quicker turning than the Bennett, but it doesn't turn as deep. I removed the cupped washer that it came with because it would make contact with the hanger. Not bad for limiting wheelbite, but I wanted the deeper turn. So I'm using a small flat washer. I've felt the need to use hard bushings for good return to center and also to slow the turn. The black 95a reflex conicals work surprisingly well. I'm currently trying a venom 93a barrel with a 92a retro cone, which also feels good. The truck is so turny that I've had to tighten the purple springs of the rear truck to near max. Again, I think I'm going to have to play with the wedging up front. I don't understand exactly how the geometry factors in, but in the comparison photos you can see how, even with less wedging, the kingpin leans more. The pictured 6.0 has 15* of wedging. Note: The Pulse is my track-dedicated deck with the longer wheelbase and the Slippery Skates is set up more for all-around with softer springs and more wedging. I also interchange a 5.0 hanger when needed. 
Click to see full size image 
Click to see full size image 
Click to see full size image |
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| LDPanda |
I broke my bennett so rather than fixing it, i decided to order an MHS hybrid 11 (yes, im that lazy). Its a 4.5 inch hangar which seems like a nice compromise between the 4.3 and 5.0 bennetts, especially considering i prefer the 4.3. Looking at your pictures, stocago, i notice you have a fair amount of riser on that front. Im wonder if thats a personal preference thing or if you were running into wheelbite issues? You mention it doesnt turn as deep as the bennett and I dont run a whole lot of riser with the bennett so Im hoping I wont have to use much with the MHS either. Correct me if im wrong, but did you end up using about the same wedging or slightly less on the MHS as you would with a bennett? | ||||||||||
| stocago |
The MHS Hybrids run lower than the Bennetts, so I'm guessing you'll need an extra quarter-inch riser, but you can try it lower just to see if it works for you.
With Bennetts I've run anywhere from 7 to 22 degrees of wedging depending on the setup/purpose, but with the hybrid I can't seem to go past 12 degrees and like it. It just doesn't seem to have that same tacking motion. The effort in turning seems to increase. From 8* to 10* has worked best for me. I found that my kingpin was not secure after several sessions, so you might want to check it before installation. I think this is why I was needing to use such stiff bushings, because there was some play/sway. Please post up a review after you've had some time with it. |
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| LDPanda |
My MHS hybrid 11 came today. Take this post with a grain of salt becuase i havent even gotten this thing on the pavement yet. As you observed, stocago, the kingpin is not secure at all. After playing with wedging for a few minutes, i unmounted it and put some loctite in and im letting it dry overnight. The KP is inserted like on a randal baseplate, neither pressed in (like a tracker or indy) nor gnarled (like a bennett). Its clear from looking at the baseplate that the stock KP was gnarled but has been removed and replaced with a smooth shank KP which, while stronger, is going to be less secure. Either way, the loctite should solve that problem. The KP angle with respect to the deck is quite a bit steeper than the bennet, Im looking at about 10* of total wedging as opposed to my normal 20* ish. Again, thats just a guess from standing on it in my kitchen, im thinking i might even go less. Otherwise, the geometry is quite simmilar to the bennet. It takes bennett sized bottom bushing combos quite well and the stock bushing combo i recieved it with was shimmed up. More to come soon! | ||||||||||
| LDPanda |
So, Ive had a little more time with the ACE/Core MHS Hybrid 11, enough to write some first impressions. The good: One of the cleanest cast hangars Ive ever seen, nearly as clean as a CNC'd hangar. I didnt have to do any dremel work on it. Reasonably stable at speed with a fun surfy feel on the downhill. Initiates the turn very quickly and turns quite deeply (with the right bushings). The neutral: Doesnt really offer any height advantage over the bennett; if anything, i was running it a little bit higher. Doesnt offer much in the way of kingpin clearance advantage over the bennett the way it comes from MHS, BUT the kingpin length he chose is quite long and you could go shorter IMO, which would give you a clearance advantage. The bad: Almost no return to center. I tried many different bushing combinations, most of them much harder than i normally ride, and it always felt sluggish on the return. I had to constantly pour energy into the board to get it to pump on the flats and going uphill is exhausting if not impossible for me. It also was kind of twitchy when i was pushing, which was more than usual since i couldnt really get it to pump uphill. In many ways, it felt like pumping a much wider hangar in that it takes a long time to make a full turn left to right becuase theres no return to center.
I was testing between 10 and 12 degrees of wedging and when i come back to this, i will probably go less, maybe 5 or 7. Id eventually like to run it flat too and see how that works out. I tried dozens of bushing combinations and to be honest, the best i found was the sabre cones that it came with from MHS. He had the bottom shimmed up a bit and it seemed to pump the best for me. Im actually really digging the sabre cones. Right now Ive unmounted this and gone back to my bennett for the time being, too close to the next ultra to really dial in a new truck, especially considering how much difficulty im having with it. I have a hunch that i may end up not using this truck for LDP and put it on a pedestrian slalom cruiser type setup. Its a fun surfy truck but the return to center issue is too much for me to feel like its pump-worthy. |
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