NOT FAST ENOUGH!

fuzzydeer · NOT FAST ENOUGH!

I have always loved LDP but I have yet to justify using it in lieu of wearing running shoes and pushing really really fast.
I know technique has something to do with it. My technique is the bastard child of the pumping style of tight slalom and the short - long distance wigglings on my downhill racing boards (like 1 kilometer max usually). I even did a few hours crossing south america LDP style! I toss the baby quite a lot. It's how I pump most of the time. but I find bouncing more helps a bit when at higher speeds.
I've been watching the videos and I am trying to adopt a more efficient and faster rolling style.
Now the real question is with my gear!

I am using a Rayne timeline made of aspen wood (recycled snowboard core with fiberglass, the wheels mounts are about 28 inches apart) its very flexy and rather short. I really like the boards feel with the rare aspen material.

I use Bennett 6.O's
15* wedge in the front
a 15* de-wedge in the back (I though it felt faster then a ten degree de-wedge)

for bushings I am running a blue venom conical in the front on the top and a khiro orange cone and white barrel in the base.
for my back trucks bushings I run a tall blue venom conical with some spacers as the base and a yellow 85a venom barrel on the top.
The bushings are lively as hell, tons of rebound, and they are soft. Blue venoms are 78a I think, the softest venoms, yellows are 85a.

My wheels are Plasma wheels, 7Omm pocket pistols slalom racing wheel but with a very orangatang esque style urethane.
: I want to get some blue black ops avilas as my next wheel for LDP.

What can be changed to turn my 13 mph into 17? I am very fit that is not an issue. Is it all technique or is my wheelbase too short?
Could I de-wedge the nose a little, possibly running only 1O*? is the tail over wedged?

Another possible problem I have is that I almost HAVE to ride Rayne longboards as I am sponsored by them... I can ride other boards but I can't use them in races or at ultra skates (I hope I make next years)

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks a lot, much love from Canada,
-Paul Kent

fuzzydeer

I'm not at all concerned with pumping up hills. I just want to fastest top end speed I can get pumping on flat ground. I can push uphill like the dickens! I have never been beaten up a hill by anyone not even Robskey. I'll just push. I want my rig to be dialed for fast flat land pumping. most of my local terrain is flat with the exception of the nearby rocky mountains. 9 percent of the hills I encounter I could simply roll up if I can gain enough speed before hand.

fuzzydeer

Oh one more tidbit, I am 165 and I will be 155 by the time rogue race happens. (my weight follows my training phases)

stocago

You're limited by the shorter wheelbase (26.5"), but you can tweak the setup. Less wedging is a good start as that deck is flexing you past 15 degrees. My flexy Mermaid has only 8 degrees of wedging in front.

If you're using a Bennett in back, maybe try a dedicated rear truck like a Seismic Stable-Turn as that will maximize your wheelbase.

My first makeshift LDP deck was a topmounted Hustler (28.5" wheelbase). I don't know much about the Rayne line, but I'm sure you can find something that can work.

fuzzydeer

I can make a board out of a pug (one of raynes boards) with longer holes drilled in it, its actually the same mould as the hustler but it has less taper and its a top mount.
I'll keep practicing and I'll try to squeeze what I can from the timeline then in a month or so I'll get a longer board.
What wheel base would you recommend? what are the fastest guys using?

Would you say the wheelbase is my biggest problem?
is my speed of 22.5 kph or 14 miles per hour is respectable with my current board setup?

I have only been riding a board wedge for proper LDP for 2 days now. I think I have the rudementry technique kinda figured out but I am definitely clumsy. everything else has been either unwedged trucks, Tight slalom setups, or downhill stuff.

stocago

I think a longer wheelbase is worth an extra MPH or two, depending on the setup. It's usually harder to get going with a longer wheelbase, but I don't think it's harder once you get up to speed. It's definitely a higher gear.

Depending on how much your deck is flexing, that could also affect the top speed. A flexy deck is not necessarily slow, but it could be taking away some power from your pump.

I'm not sure how you determined your speed, but keep experimenting and tweaking your setup to get the best out of it. A set measured course and stopwatch is the best way to compare.

Your speed of 14 mph is definitely respectable. Maybe 16 mph is attainable on that setup for short bursts. Many say that they can pump @20, but if it's accurate it's either wind or grade aided. I"d say 17-18 mph is the highest attainable speed on the flat with no wind benefit and 16-17 mph is probably the highest sustainable speed for most people with the current setups. With experimentation of new equipment and new riders to LDP coming out and testing themselves the speeds will increase.

fuzzydeer

My gps is pretty darn accurate. The new forerunner is equal to the edge. I also have the distances between obstacles on my local pathways figured out so I can referance. I also check stuff on motion base which corrects it.

I plan on trying out the concrete velodrome in the area soon too!

Thanks a lot for your advice.

stocago

My fastest setup is almost 34" from axle to axle. I'm giving you that measurement because from baseplate to baseplate it can vary depending on the wedging and truck style. My favorite "go-to" deck for all-around LDP comes in almost three inches shorter from axle to axle, even though the decks are almost identical in length. I'd say it's worth about 2MPH top end speed.

RiPPer

stocago what are the decks you referenced above? How many LDP set ups do you have and what are they?

fuzzydeer you might want to try the Rayne Vice as an LDP set up. I know Erin used to use a Vice. Also maybe just keep experimenting with
wedging/dewedging and bushing combos. How much do you weigh?
I think your bushings might be on the soft side, particularly in the back.
I think you'd get more speed and power out of more stable less turny rear truck also. Either the seismic as stocago mentioned, or a tracker rt-s, randal 125 or airflow. Or maybe Virages LDP's.

The specs are close to the Roe Mermaid LDP, although I'm sure the feel of the board is quite different.

Rayne Vice Specs:
Length: 40" (101.5cm), Width: 9.5" (24.1cm), Wheelbase: 28", Center Camber, Light Concave

Paved Wave Gear Page Deck Recommendations:

* A deck that is wide enough in the nose to enable the full width of your foot, to transfer more subtle movements directly over and down into the front truck's pivot

* A wheelbase in the range between 26" to 31".

* Some degree of subtle flex in the board. Not a soft noodle, and not stiff as a rock.

stocago

Ian the Groove Worshipper

I think that the Avenger Dee-lite may be your best Rayne deck option. To be honest, none of them that I just found on their website have enough front foot real estate to be ideal for LDP. You need to be able to get your front foot directly over the front axle, and if your toes and heels are hanging off the board, it will be uncomfortable and inefficient.

If you are bound to using one of those deck options, you may consider experimenting with reverse kingpin truck or a Carver CX up front, as they will move the axle rearward, thus your foot position will also move back a bit to where you'll have more real estate. This will make a huge difference in your comfort level.

I've never tried a Bennett in rear, but imagine that may be your biggest limiting factor at this point. Do you have any reverse kingpin trucks around? The Avenger has a 33" WB, so a reverse kingpin in rear would be a viable choice, given the extra WB at your disposal. I've found that reverse kingpin trucks get great traction, far better than an RTS. Wedge the kingpin to anywhere between 28-35 degrees and let us know how it goes.

If you'll be sticking with your current deck, I'd recommend a Seismic 155 in rear with Green or maybe even Purple springs, for a Reverse KP will shorten your WB too much. It sounds like your front bushings are very, very soft for a 6.0 hangar and your weight. I'd consider trying Khiro blue/blue on bottom. I'd also recommend trying 10 degrees, or even less up front if you want pure top end pumping speed.

81a Avilas should be excellent, and faster than your 70mm wheels.

14mph is a good place to start, actually quite impressive with your current setup. Let us know how what you do and how it works out. Having the GPS should be an invaluable tool in giving you some clear objective feedback as to how well your setup tweaks are working out for you.

fuzzydeer

Maybe I'll set up my avenger deelit for LDP!

RiPPer

stocago

I weigh 150 and wouldn't want it any flexier. Next time around I'll get a medium.

RiPPer

stocago

And it's not that I don't like it, I love it! But I'm using the shorter wheelbase of the two and also using a Randal with the downhill plate to get a nicer snap. My stance is usually compact and I like my back foot in the middle of the deck. If I were to get the medium flex I could use the longer wheelbase and a Seismic and get the same pop.

pavedwave

Greg this is really good feedback on your personal flex prefs, I'd like to add this to the Mermaid thread in Vendors. I know that my 165lbs is the "absolute ceiling" for the Light flex preference, that's why we changed the flex chart some months ago.

fuzzydeer

has anyone ever played with have a 0 degree style truck? does that work?
I have my siemic truck now and its dialed with a 5 degree de-wedge (25 degree siesmic) I haven't tried it any other way. seems to work pretty good.
my board moves a lot faster wtih that truck in the rear. I got it up to 15.22 miles per hour and that wasn't my fastest run, I'm sure! But I had to have a seizure to do it!
I have my bennet wedged at 10 degrees in the front, I'm finding the rear green springs a little tight maybe too tight, but If I brought the truck down to 15 degrees it would probably get enough leverage to make it not so stiff. or I can go with a red coil at 30 degrees I figure. What do you guys think?
Should I change my front wedge? I really just want it to keep up with my casual push pace of 25 kph without having to works so hard and I would like to look less like a spaz.

stocago

Are the green springs already on minimal tension? If you already have the red springs, try those. Or instead, you could add a bit more dewedging, but I haven't experimented with more than 10*.

Since the front and back are tied in together, absolutely experiment with the front wedging or softer bushings. By adding 5* in front you may find that the back feels just right.

Try not to change more than one thing at a time.

How are you liking your Plasma wheels? Are they the preconed ones? What duro?

It may simply take a while to get used to the Seismic as a rear truck. Just give it some time. I just set up my Mermaid to be the ultimate hill climber with a 4.3 Bennett front and a 125 Randal rear and had a great session, but then took out my other deck that I loved all week, set up with a Seismic rear and purple springs and absolutely hated it. I could hardly pump it, as if I was in a straightjacket. The Seismic pushes you forward, instead of side to side. You really have to drive it with your back leg.

If you are still using 70mm wheels, try moving up to 75 or so. My mile times are usually 10 seconds faster that way.

fuzzydeer

Yeah I upgraded to blue and white black op avila's WAY better for grip compared to my coned plasma (haha} the plasmas are pretty good though, like orangatangs but with a better suited lip for pumping.
But the 75mm avilas make the most sense for maintaining roll. if I were climbing more hills I might use new plasma's or zigzags.

fuzzydeer

How does the wheelbase measurements on the subsonic boards go? is it inside mount hole to inside mount hole? or is it front to front? or outside, to outside?

Batalero

Paul, usually wheelbase is measured between inner holes on pumping boards
Sylvain

Shaine

Being 185lbs myself and choosing the Bennett & Seismic rear options from Stoked I figured the Stiff Flex would be best for me. I may be having more of an issue because of my perception and experience rather than a technical one. Standing on this Roe Mermaid and bouncing on it my first reaction was "ah sh@# this is stiff!". I have been using a DIY set up that was entirely too flexy and had to stand right on the front truck, so going to the stiff Roe may be just a shocking difference. I moved the rear truck to the longest WB and it was a little more flex. Dropped my square to the ground I can bounce (not jump) the deck down 3/4" max. While pumping I can only feel it flexing when I drive hard with my rear foot so I figure I'm getting 3/4" to 1" of flexion. Does this sound about right? I'm not sure I'm experiencing this "pop" & I don't want to be missing out if I need lighter flex so I was hoping someone of my weight could give some feedback. Other then that, the set up as a whole is the easiest pumping I've experienced by far and is perfectly beautiful craftsmanship. Also I wouldn't hesitate to continue giving Stoked my business as I had a great experience with them.

pavedwave

Great hearing the stuff from Paul and Greg about Seismic rears, I think it's one of the best energy returning trucks and totally fits the bill for setting up without breaking the bank. The rattling springs on the really tough terrain is the only downside IMHO. It's amazing how sometimes when you're first discovering the power from seismic rear, it'll actually "pitch" you forward when you didn't expect it. It feels like a turbo boost compared with other traditional trucks.

And always like to hear more flex impressions on the Roe. I think you'd enjoy the Medium, but you'll definitely learn to pump stronger on the one you've got. One thing I'd recommend is trying to move your stance a little farther back from the nose and tail sometimes to shake things up, getting your feet together closer and pumping from the 'center' of the board, where you'll get the most flex. That might also help you decide if you want to trade in some time down the road for a higher flex board. It's all good, I'm going to be moving to a Medium for a while again but I always end up going back to a Light.

Ian the Groove Worshipper

Shaine - are you on the longest WB? If so, I would recommend drilling out another WB 1 inch in front of the front WB. This will give you a ton more flex, and you'll still have plenty of real estate for your front foot. The Pulse comes stock with this extra WB, but the Mermaid does not, though maybe the next version will.

I agree the Seismic is a superb rear truck. The Pivot Pin eliminates all slop. In a typical bushing truck (without spherical bearing), there is always slop/latency when changing directions, and at the extremes of turning they tend to give and cause the hanger to hit the KP (which often coincides with wheelbite). The Seismic Pivot Pin and Spherical trucks eliminate the hanger float and momentary loss of power transmission that occurs each time you change directions, making them transmit power (and road vibrations) more efficiently, and making it so that you can turn very deeply with linear response and no giving out at the extremes. The Seismic springs give the added bonus of amazing rebound. I have found that by using a Seismic it opens up many more wheel options, because they stick with all but the most greasy wheels.

Seismics are great, and in my opinion should replace the RT-S as the most recommended rear truck for beginners. I have found the RT-S traction to be very disappointing. If you prefer a bushing truck, a Randal style truck will give infinitely more traction than an RT-S (though it will shorten your wheelbase too).

I've been riding my Seismic with Purple springs, but that is just because it is on my board which is set up without compromise for Cyber Miles. By going softer, the board will pump and accelerate more effortlessly at lower speeds, with only a slightly lower top speed.

Shaine

I'm glad to hear the stance recommendation as I was always thinking "foot on the front truck" was preferable when pumping. I'll drop back a bit & experiment with stance. Yes, I am on the longest WB, which helps some, and was considering doing the front re-drill as I noticed you (Ian) or somebody had posted on that in an older thread. I have drill press access. Also I need to get green med. springs on the rear as I think the light yellows are robbing me a bit when I drive off my rear foot even after tensioning.

Roe Mermaid stiff, longest WB
front Bennett 5.0 +18degrees
rear Seismic 130 stable -5degrees
Lime Zags all around

Redline

I've never used an RTs as I had a 130 Stable Seismic from the beginning.
I had Yellow Springs to start but now use Red ones tightened down. I gotta say I don't notice a whole lot of difference, if any at my 185lbs. However I am fairly new to pumping.
BTW, if your thinkng of getting a set of Green(medium) there only $10.95 shipped from TheLongboardStore, one of the few places I've been able to locate them.

Shaine

Thanks for the tip:

Med Green Springs
Stoked Price: $9.95 +s/h
The Longboard Store: $10.50 FREE ground shipping

Opentip.com: Sub-Total: $7.37
Shipping to US(48 States) (): $6.49
Handling fee: $5.00
Total: $18.86 Shocked

http://www.sneaks4sale.com/: $9.40 FREE shipping (I'd rather not support these giant discounters and would be leery as well)

Shaine · Drilled new mount for Mermaid

Got out the big square and T-square today and drilled a new front mount 1.25" further towards the nose than stock mount. I'm really feeling the 'pop' out of turns while pumping now Very Happy

So much of an improvement I over did it and now I'm feeling the pain Crying or Very sad

Oh well, it's all good! Rolling Eyes

Thanks Ian.

NOT FAST ENOUGH!

Drilled new mount for Mermaid