| Archive for pavedwave longboarding distance longboarding, flatland pumping, cross-country adventuring, boardwalk cruising, and all things skateboarding and good times |
| fontinalis |
Mixed Wheel SizesI've noticed that several of the dedicated LDP decks have cutaway tails to prevent wheel bite. Has anyone experimented with a large wheels in back and smaller up front? What might be the effect for pumping?On the Future page on the Subsonic site there is a dropped deck version of the Pulse called the Century. It has 85mm in the rear and 75mm in front. |
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| jat. |
I'm guessing that the extra millimeters in the back add some stability. So I'm guessing that with mixed wheel sizes you have the ability to tweak even more seeing as smaller wheels usually allow more agile turning and bigger wheels are more stable. | ||
| dustm |
I'm giving this a try today with 70mm orange zigs up front and 79a 77mm black ops vents in the back. | ||
| pavedwave |
It's all about the Cyber Mile 
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| LDPanda |
Ive refrained from posting in this thread becuase i havent tried mixed sizes, but i think there might be some misconceptions going on that i want to touch on. The reason behind large rear wheels for F-1 or funny car racers has to do with the fact that power is delivered to the rear wheels by the engine. In LDP we convert angular momentum into linerar acceleration, a very different process of generating thrust. That being said, I belive larger wheels will always be better UNTIL you increase the height of the deck to the point where it is uncomfortable to footbreak and push. That is, i dont beleive there is a reason to mix wheel sizes, go as big as you can without raising your deck height too much. Large wheels roll over obstacles better, have better shock absorbtion for their duro (as long as the core isnt huge as well) and maintain roll speed better. They may lack slightly in acceleration from a stop, but when your journey is 20 mi +, who cares. Why would you want to 'gimp' one side of your setup by placing smaller wheels? Are 'smaller' wheels more agile or is it that 'narrower' wheels are more agile? I fully support mixed contact patch sizes, like trimmed avilas in front and untrimmed in back, but I cant endorse mixed wheel 'heights.'
Just my 2c. Edit: re-reading the OP, i realize he brought up the issue of tail cutouts, and its a good point. I suppose you could use larger wheels in the rear while removing risers from the truck and keep a balanced deck height and not affect pushing/braking. That might have some advantages, its hard to say without trying. |
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| RiPPer |
Re: Mixed Wheel Sizes
I haven't tried mixed sizes. But I have seen the pics of that Subsonic with mixed wheels. Interesting. Chris Yandall runs 71mm in back with 62mm in front. His explanation is this ""Larger wheels in the back and smaller up front allows stability rides simply by keeping weight near tail of board and when one's weight is forward, turning the nose gently or on a dime is a piece of cake!" http://www.skogging.com/skogging_skateboards_for_sale.html So why would larger wheels in back increase stability? Jat mentioned this above as well. Could this be related to JP's thoughts on chi running and falling forward momentum? "My theory in a nutshell is much the same as that of Chi running-- that your energy is always moving and falling forward, especially since we're mostly on flats and inclines, and for hours/miles at a time. So I want my board to be "throwing" me forward down the trail." I don't think I'd want to go smaller than 75mm in front, but I might try that with 77mm in back. Then again a 2mm differential might not be enough to make any difference. We discussed this briefly in the truck forum in the "front truck wedging" tread, as well. Thoughts on this? |
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| dustm |
I just wrote up a huge response to this and lost it when i had to log-in after pressing submit (after having been logged in already).
Maybe its for the better because it was long-winded. Still annoying though. Is there some sort of setting I can change? Basically the jist of it was... Smaller wheels' lower inertia reduces the amount of energy necessary to accelerate them all different ways in a pump cycle. Aside from the obvious linear accelerations, the wheel RPMs change constantly, the truck turning action is fighting the wheels' gyroscopic forces, and the contact patches are scrubbing. The front truck turns more and travels farther side to side than the rear, and because of this magnitude of difference, energy reduction would be greater with smaller wheels used in the front vs. in the rear. I just got back from riding my setup with the orange 70mm zigs up front and black ops 79a 77mm vents in the back, and it was easier to accelerate, easier to pump slow, tracked better, and seemed to glide better, all possibly having nothing to do with wheel size at all considering the other differences of these 4 wheels. The new vents and zigs are lighter weight, higher duro, and higher rebound formula than the white/blue vents I had on there previously. It was also a more harsh ride. Even just 1/8" lower up front made pushing feel not so laborious though and I was no longer *this close* to wheelbite. A more direct comparison would be black ops 79a vents all around vs 79a vents rear, 79a (or 84a) black ops hot spots front. or similar with zigs/bigzigs. Of course this is not a test as much as a subjective comparison. Mile times will tell. Big wheels may feel more stable and grippy because they are wider, wider set, and have a longer contact patch, or at least a more gradual application and removal of contact patch as the wheel rolls becaues of the larger radius. The wheel feels more connected at a given speed, and is turning lower rpm than a small wheel. |
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| LDPanda |
Great post! Let me address some points individually: You can mark: "log me in automatically each time" (or whatever the exact wording is) to stay logged in. I run into this at work becuase i dont check that box at work, but ive never had that problem at home where i do check that box. Its on the login screen. I like your inertia and contact patch argument, but i still say that has more to do with wheel width, not neccessarily wheel height. Im all in favor of trimming down front wheels (where you need less grip) to reduce weight and the rotational inertia fighting the truck tacking mechanism. but reducing height? I think you will do more harm than good. As for "mile times will tell," i disagree somewhat but that probably has more to do with our riding styles. I go out for 10-40 mile sessions over less than ideal surfaces. For me, larger wheels will always be superior. A cyber mile test means very little to me, especially one conducted at a velodrome or other nice surface. I would completely belive someone who said their 1 mile time was faster with smaller wheels or mixed wheel sizes becuase 1 mile is still sort of a sprint, acceleration is important. I would be less likely to beleive someone who claimed their 100 mile time improved with smaller wheels as acceleration is moot at that point and roll momentum and shock absorbtion become more important. |
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| dustm |
Yeah, I see what you mean and you're right, I'm talking mostly short duration sprints. My home trails would have some rather 'interesting' spots with the orange zigs!
Interesting discussion here... You may have inspired me to trim my orange bigzigs down in width a bit. In effect that would make them ride softer too. I wonder how they would do set super narrow with the inner lips trimmed to avoid truck bite? Deck lowed, all counts of inertia lowered, but a noob would probably dive/tip the front over in a heartbeat... Or an experienced person may have some stability issues... Not handling stability, but edge to edge foot resistance stability. A wider rear track with some firm yet spongy, reboundy bushings would be a must for it to feel right, and then only once you are up past slow jog for it to start to generate side force when you turn to keep the front axle flat. I know I sometimes get the front wheels to come up some on a 'regular' LDP setup while pulling the front across the fall line accelerating hard at low speed, with the outer edge of the inside wheel gripping and the rest up in the air a little. When its wet too I get them to slide across the fall line like that with real quick 'hump pumps'. |
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| fontinalis |
Great discussion guys, thanks for all the thoughts. I'm going to play with this as I'm a fan of the big wheel ride feel. You guys blow my mind with your descriptions of pumping technique and style. I've got a lot to learn. | ||
| angelo_pb |
85mm too big?Has anyone tried the 85mm vents? If wheelbite is not an issue, would you choose an 85mm vent over a 77mm or 78mm? There is nothing i can do to lower my board height at the moment. I kind of like the bigger is better argument. |
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| pavedwave |
Personally, when it comes to a pure pumping setup, I've gotten up to a point where 77mm feels about as big as I'd want to go. Guess it's a mix between effort expended and the ability to maintain that top-end momentum once reached. 75mm feels like a "sweet spot", and 70-ish feels like a really fun "little" wheelsize to me now.
I could see someday a big corn-fed 240-pound 6'8" Swede named Gunther jump on a big 33" wheelbase pumping board with randal 180's and 85mm+ wheels and cranking the hell out of it, setting uber-Olympian records then chewing the carbon fiber off his board in celebration...but I'm going to stick with 75mm's myself. |
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| jat. |
Wow ... |
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| pavedwave |
well, maybe a corn-fed kid from Nebraska then 
or DRAGO 
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| angelo_pb |
I like the analogy. Is that Ivan Drago from Rocky?
You almost have to wonder if the wheel weight plays a role in the pump equation. Some of these wheels are approaching 3/4 of pound. |
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| stocago |
I think Gunther will be setting the records with a rear Seismic Stable-Turn 180 with the black super-heavy springs! | ||
| pavedwave |
I just noticed a new forum member 
Gunther, don't tell me you're from Sweden or Nebraska??
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| wafflesole |
mental image foe the day! Made me almost choke on my breakfast! Genius. | ||
| Gunther |
Sorry, I've been lurking here for a while but I couldn't resist the name.
I'm not 6'8", but I'm pretty close in a lot of ways. I do chew carbonfiber, but only because smoking it is hard on the lungs...
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| egret |
Has anyone tried the 85 mm vents for ldp? I am intrigued with the idea of using them as rear wheels with smaller wheels up front. I started using the black earthwings superballs as rear wheels with purple in heats on front and like it. I wonder what effect noticably larger and heavier wheels on the rear would have? Would it be a drag or improve stability? | ||
| model.citizen |
i've been running 70mm 78a tarantula STPs up front and 75mm 73a avilas (non-blackops) in the back lately.
MUCH more acceleration and the ability to maintain speed up slight inclines, less fear of wheelbite, i like. haven't noticed any real sluggishness from the Avilas in the rear, and the setup still seems to get up to a good clip. only (small) bummer is the slight loss of cushiness up front and of course the lower kingpin...just gotta remember to respect curbs and driveways a little more. 
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