Dropdown LDP decks? and Subsonic Century review

Bullwings · Dropdown LDP decks? and Subsonic Century review

Deleted my last thread since I figure this one is more appropriate.

Anyone have experience with turning dropdown decks into LDPP decks (PP - pumping/pushing)?

I know the Evo makes a good candidate. Any others out there? Subsonic Reflex or Swift? Boards by Rayne? Kebbek? WeFunk?

I'd like to have a pumper/pusher that's decently stable going down hills. I know you can't ask for too much in the stability department with the front truck being so loose, but being risered up to the sky so you don't get wheel bite probably doesn't help either (Pulse/mermaid).

Bullwings

Just got an email back from Scott at subsonic. It appears he and James have already discussed a hybrid pumper using a drop board with the angled transition for the front truck.

He as something drawn out already but hasn't built it yet. He's willing to pursue it, so I'm game. We'll see what happens. We haven't discussed any specifics yet. I'll keep you all updated if you're interested.

pavedwave

yeah this has been an ongoing experiment, mostly off than on lately. the key is to not compromise on pumping leverage as much as possible.

the evo pumper was an interesting stint. what it really lacks is flex, and it has too long a wheelbase. it does "pump" across flats, but you're relying almost entirely on the tic-tac of the front and driving speed off the rear, but getting practically no return energy from the board itself. actually, Terry just pointed out a board company that might be filling that gap with a "schlongboard" type thinner, shorter deck that goes exactly in this direction. ( http://pavedwave.myfastforum.org/about160.html )

personally, i've found the dedicated pumping board experience cross-country to be not all as bad as some think. firstly because we're usually pumping 80-90% of the time, and secondly because I think many peeps still set up their boards way too high, using risers that are fat on both ends. on our interstate rides like the Seattle to Portland, where you're battling fatigue the most, the only place I felt a low board was really needed were a couple of mile-long uphill sections, or extremely steep uphills.

I think this perception of extreme risers comes also from the experimental time when we're playing around with Carver trucks, which you basically have to riser flat, and really tall, in the 6" range if you're trying to run any significantly sized wheels. on my Carver setups now I just run wheels in the 62--65mm range just for general crusing and parking lot fun board.

my Bennett-LDP setups are only 4.5"-5" off the ground at max height, and I don't find that to be too high for the short pushing lengths.

what is truly key in wedging an LDP setup is that the front truck's riser is super THIN on one end, and fat on the other. this means that the only height you get off the ground is due to the wheelsize, deck width, and fat end of the riser.

so far I'd say the Cambiar concept board of Mark Groenenboom's captures one of the best tradeoffs -- the flex of the aluminum brackets, combined with a somewhat rigid yet snappy deck (the Loaded works nice, Scott's Subsonic deck worked equally nice as well) and now it's figuring out how to get the most leverage possible over the front truck. that's where the shape of Scott's deck could really come into play.

Bullwings

I'm using the Khiro wedge kit, so it's definitely thin on one end and fat on the other end. As opposed to the "Angled wedges" which are fat on both ends and provide less than 7 degrees of wedging. I'm using a 1/4" shock pad. All of this risers me to about 5 inches (i'm using the new 73mm black ops speed vents - which are awesome btw - not too small and not on the big side either). I'm also using the bennett 6.0 which has a slightly thicker base plate if i'm not mistaken - going off of hear say, i haven't actually compared the two side by side.

Quick question about this board the two of you were sort of in the works of designing, it's not the raven is it? How much flex does it have and would it be suitable for mild down hill? I'm not looking for an Evo, but I'd like it to be a tad bit more stable at speed when compared to my pulse 40 and flex 4 vanguard (if it's not the trucks, it's the flex of the board that scares me). I don't want to bomb hills, but I don't want to have to drag my foot down the entire way.

I'm going to try to give Scott a call tomorrow, but it seems like he's been slammed with orders this time of year and I haven't been able to get a hold of him.

pavedwave

here's some of the ideas i've sent and we've flipped around.

the first was actually a carbon-foam proto I was thinking of working with rollsrolls, but it seemed like his turnaround time was long, and he was already working on the wooden version of the RR sportster at that time.

===============================================
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then started taking an original Subsonic deck, morphing in the dimensions from the Evo experiments and adding rain guard mods and leveraging the Evo type angling (Scott was already doing on his modified RIP board) --
which removes all need for extraneous wedged risers...

it would have a flex like you'd expect from a maple-birch combination, like an 8-ply schlongboard. definitely needs some stability in the nose and not too significant a drop, since we've seen that the original LY DH neck has some weak points when converted into a pumper.

Bullwings

Cool. I was essentially looking for a shorter Evo with some flex to it. I think the current Evo has WB at 34.5" and i know you guys recommend anywhere from 26-31" for LDP.

The one thing i'm currious about with those designs you've thrown out is wouldn't it be kind of weird to pump with your feet on different level platforms? I wouldn't know since i haven't tried it, and i just learned to pump last month when my Pulse 40 came in (i'm pretty proud of a 7-8 mile session I recently did - pathetic. haha).

It just seems odd, or am I missing something here and looking at those designs completely wrong? It just seems like you'd mostly want to keep your feet on relatively the same vertical plane for pumping. Some of the slalom boards with the upturned tail make sense to me, but i can't quite picture having my front foot an inch and a half higher than my back foot.

pavedwave

Bullwings

watched the videos and I definitely think I'd have a difficult time pumping like that.

If I can get a hold of Scott, I'll see what he has planned. Maybe a modified Raven or Reflex would fit the bill. Getting my feet leveraged over the trucks and pumping like that Rolls Rolls probably wouldn't work out so well for me.

We'll see what Scott has planned. This might take some time though with how busy he is right now.

Bullwings · stability question

I was reading more through the gear section, and you mentioned that the drop deck actually added MORE squirreliness to the deck when setup for LDP.

So, is it impossible to incorporate the pushing and stability characteristics of a drop deck with those of an LDP deck (minus the foot over the front truck)?

I figure it might actually get a response here since getting a hold of Scott right now seems impossible, and I don't think 50 million emails will help. I'm sure he'll answer when he has the time, which might be another 2 weeks from now. Or after that next slalom meet.

pavedwave

Always a trade-off. A stiff drop deck with a really loose front truck creates a kind of pendulum effect, like a hammock swaying, when speeds pick up. So what works nice in the 10--15mph range, might toss you sideways with speed wobbles getting up past 30mph. Having a wife and kid, I'm not a huge fan of testing higher speeds, so on cross-state excursions, which involve both lots of flatland pumping AND some high speed downhills, I still tend toward using a topmount board.

On a 183-mile ride I'll be starting tomorrow, there are a LOT of inclines, so now I'm faced with the dilemma of whether the benefit of pumping the topmounted board will outweigh the downside of having an extra inch of height on each push, especially for the uphills. That's the real reason for wanting to have a "lowered LDP" to start with. But I'm still leaning toward using my baby the Mermaid, and increasingly interested in the science and the evidence that the lowered deck really, truly saves significant loads of energy, depending upon the pushing technique the skater uses. (In other words, I'm fighting the idea of switching to a drop deck for this...)

Right at the moment, I think the best solution or compromise to this is Mark G's "Cambiar" invention, which might end up packaged on a Loaded deck, and called the "Fathom." There's another thread on that in this forum, and Eric from Texas has been testing and tweaking his a lot more than I have lately...

http://pavedwave.myfastforum.org/...d_under_test_wicked__about36.html

And yeah, better to try calling Scott at some point, the emails just get noisy. He gets tons of "pen pal" mail. With that amount of volume you have to start to prioritize actual business mails at some point (those who've financially committed to a deck/project.) Also there may have been some medical issue lately, I just caught word of last night and need to follow up on that...

Bullwings

http://picasaweb.google.com/alber...rototypeBoard#5254613000880324402

http://picasaweb.google.com/alber...rototypeBoard#5254612780576804434

A little update from Scott. Some new boards in the works. Those of you at the 24hr Ultraskate this weekend might get to see it in action. James, let me know what you think.

I'm stupid and can't figure out how to embed the pictures, so i just posted links.[/url]

Redline

Cool beans!
Here's your other pic:

rodgon

Bullwings

I'll let you know in 5 to 6 weeks maybe...

cappa

cool! which one did you order?.....

Bullwings · Update on century

I just got mine Century in. I got the 2.25 inch drop.

I'm still working on dialing everything in - proper wedging, ride height (risers), bushings, and which trucks to use.

First impressions. Awesome board. It's a lot of fun. It's not as easy to pump as the Pulse (you lose some leverage due to the drop), but the drop is really nice for locking your feet in - like a built in toe stop. Pushing and foot breaking is awesome since you're so low to the ground. My setup has a very surfy feel to it.

I'm still working things out, but in hindsight, i'm thinking the 1.5 inch drop is the more practical of the two. Unless it's a dedicated push board or downhill board, 2.25 inch drop is just a bit excessive. Added to that, it also makes foot placement a bit more difficult if you're taller and have a wider stance - it's perfect for me though at 5'9". I can really just put my feet on top of the drop angled part of the board and really craddle it. I'm probably going to riser mine up a little bit more to get more leverage - that'll probabaly make it more like the 1.5 inch drop.

As far as ride height for the board. I'm looking at around 2.5 +/- 0.25 inches of ground clearance at the lowest point of the board. My Pulse 40 by comparison was more like 5 +/- 0.25 inches at the lowest point.

As far as stability goes, i'm not too sure yet. It feels nice so far, but I haven't tested the limits. If anything, i'm pretty sure that trucks will play more into the stability than the board itself (at least when comparing the Pulse and Century). There might be the issue of that pendulum rocker effect, but i'm not so sure yet.

Anyway, I'm still working out the setup and dialing things in. I'll provide an update later.

(double post from thread in "Dedicated to the push." I figure this gets more browsing traffic)

I'll try posting some pictures later if i can get a hold of a camera.

pavedwave

great review!! be cool to see your pics how you've got it all set up.

i missed your comment here entirely back when you first posted it (yours and rodgons!) but i honestly didn't give the century's a really good riding that day as I was pretty focused on other stuff. however sheldon rode the crap out of them too so maybe he can chime in with you on this later.... it'll be awesome to hear more of your impressions!

scott mounted up at least one of his with larger wheels in back than in front, i think it was like 85mm rear and 75mm front, and randal 125s i think? i do remember the boards riding really smooth and 'locked in' in a cozy way

cappa · century

I agree, great review of a fascinating board. Thanks. Look forward to reading more and seeing some pics.

I'd have been curious to know if there had been some thought into building the wedging/dewedging into the Century - as per JP's chopped down Evo on the previous page.

Sheldon

To begin with, I thought that the Century was going so be another bust. Kind of a so-so dropped LDP experiment like lots of the other dropped boards I've attempted pumping on. And I thought it would feel weak. Most drop boards were always way to stiff, but every now and then I'd hear the little cracks developing in the angles even though they seemed solid.

Pumping a dropped board definitely has a swinging feel to the pump, which is always the case in dropped vs. top. The century that I was riding actually had too much 'natural' wedging in the front and Scott had dewedged the trucks instead. I believe at the time the natural angle was about a 19 degrees in the front, wedged back to about a 15 +/- 1. Bennet in the front and Seismic in the back. The wide collar on the angles gives it the strength, while still having flex as well. In the time I was able to ride there developed no hints of stress cracks in the angles, even with really digging into the flex, and throwing in some slashes and standys.

It was fortunate that I got to ride this board during James' 24 hour attempt because in retrospect it means that the board was easily capable of 10-12 mph since I was often trailing James, and at times passing or catching him. You could still get a low body movement ankle type pump with the board, and maintain the momentum.

Lowering the platform, makes it a lot easier to push with both legs, since when pushing with your weaker leg it can almost be a lot closer to walking since you don't have to support your weight and balance in the opposite leg for as long and with as much bend. Especially on the 2.5 drop switching pushing legs regular/goofy or mongo is 10x easier with any extremely low board.

My favorite of the two for the day was the 2.5 drop, although everyone else seemed to prefer the 1.5 for the extra leverage. There is a certain part of me that feels if you are looking for some thing lower to ease the push you automatically have to accept some loss of leverage. And so to me I'd rather go with the lower, to benefit that pushing the most since the 2.5 is still a great drop pump. There is a different feel between the two depths.

I thought I should mention also that lowered platform doesn't really guarantee stability. I also have yet to take the board into any considerable high speed antics, but for me in downhill I've often found myself less comfortable and much more unstable on a dropped board than a top mount. But that's only due to the fact that the way I am used to riding isn't the way you ride a dropped board. Your center of gravity is lowered, but personal comfort and understanding of how the board maneuvers is always going to be what creates stability. So at first it may feel less stable, but adaption should be easy enough Twisted Evil

cappa · Century

Thanks for the review Sheldon. Having ridden the Century boards, would you choose them over the Pulse (or Mermaid, whatever) for another long distance ride?

Sheldon

My thoughts would be that for anything on a smooth path, such as what the 24 hour rides have been done on I would stick with a top mount board. Which ever one you prefer.

But for rides that may have a good percentage of pump inefficient surfaces, excessive hill climbs etc. essentially some thing like a cross country type ride I think the Century is a great board to try. I also think that the century could be a perfect board for push races.

Of course this is all a bit untested, as far as actual rough road pump/push goes. I'd like to really test the give and take of the lowered platform in some thing like STP.

And I know like James has stated he does, some people feel that the flex of their board lowers them enough that the drop board might not be necessary, which I have never noticed in my riding style though. So that would also be another thing to consider as well I guess.

Bullwings

Second impression of the Century 2.25 inch drop. Much more functional and useful than I was originally led to believe. I'm actually very very happy with the purchase. I was beginning to think i made the wrong move selling my Pulse 40.

Anyway, a few changes were made to my setup that made it much more pump friendly.

Originally, i tried to riser it up higher to get more leverage - bad move, it didn't do much. I then started screwing around with different trucks, wedging and bushings. I've finally dialed things in - or at least to the point where it makes a great pumper.

First off, i got rid of the randal 150s (with 35 degree base plate) that i was using on the rear. I replaced it with my trusted Seismic 30 degree stable turn de-wedged at 7 degrees.

For the front truck, I de-wedged it 4 degrees (based on what Sheldon wrote up - i think the natural wedging is overkill and wedges trucks too far out of their effective mechanical movement range). I'm using a randal 125 with 42 degree base plate (i have a Bennett 5.0 that i could use, but i feel no need to try it at this point). For bushings, I was using either two Khiro white barrel bushings, or some blue Venom bushings a cone and barrel (the softest ones they have). Both bushing setups feel great so far. I think the Venoms give the truck a greater movement range and what feels like a little bit more stability (in my head - which is a great part of what stability is about). I'm sure the Bennett 5.0 will work great. I tried it out originally before de-wedging 4 degrees, and it felt more pumpable than the Randal 125. I think the 4 degree de-wedging makes a big difference.

As for the drop, once you figure it out, i think it actually makes for a nice pump. You can really use the pendulum rocking back and forth effect to get a rhythm going with your pumps. It's quite nice. The flex of the board is quite nice too, although it is a little bit stiffer than I'd like. I'd probably go to the weight range below mine if i were to order another one.

I swapped out my 73mm speed vents with some 76mm EW superballs. Those things feel great. They roll over everythign and spit them out. The plushy feel of the ride is great too, more on that in the wheel forum.

Clearance, is still great too. I think i'm going to take an eighth to a quarter inch of soft riser out of my setup. If i was running super balls on my Pulse 40, i'd be up in the sky right now with the risers needed for clearance. It's quite low to the ground and definitely much easier to push and footbrake with. Alternate foot pushing is easier too - or at least trying to learn how to do it (i'm still working on that).

Stability feels at least on par with my Pulse 40 setup. I'll have to test it out more at the parking garage i like going to.

So, overall, i'd recommend the board. It may take some time to dial it in and getting used to it. I suspect that most people will prefer the 1.5 inch drop to the 2.25 inch drop. I haven't had the chance to try the 1.5 inch, but it seems like it would be the perfect balance between the Pulse 40 and the Century 2.25 inch drop. That being said, the 2.25 inch drop is still easy to pump. I don't feel like i've given up that much in leverage and pumpability going from the Pulse 40 to the Century 2.25.

I'll report back again after i take it for some longer rides and lower it. Hopefully i'll have some pictures by then too. If not, i'll just use my crappy cell phone camera.

cappa

pavedwave

With Sheldon's and Bullwings Century reviews, this one needs a sticky!

Also, Scott's Futures page has added the RIP board of Josh Burt's with "just the right angles" front and back. Haven't been on one yet, but looks highly functional for this type of push-pump hybrid:

Bullwings

pavedwave

you're on the right track, those links just point to the page where the picture is, just one more step, right click on those pics on your page, then select "View As..." (assuming Windows) to get the direct URL to the picture. that's the link you want to put between the 'img' tags here, like this one

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Z9drQqDO_a0...A/5f7yPhkAPtM/s912/0210091541.jpg

beauty setup!!

Bullwings · 2nd try

lets see if this works now...

This last picture is with a 4 inch diamond file. it's leaning up against the board at an angle. That kind of gives you an idea of the height.

board is set up with randal 125 front with venom bushings. i DE-wedged it 4 degrees and added a number of risers for clearance. I should have taken a head on picture, but i have a ton more kingpin clearance than i would have with a Bennett 5.0, and it's still super easy to pump.

back is a 155mm seismic stable turn.

wheels are the old earthwing 76mm superballs - now discontinued.

stocago

Nice photos! Thanks for posting them. I always love how those wheels look. Hey, if you want a slightly quicker turning setup try flipping your rear wheels.

Skatefurther Ben

Is it just me, or does the of that setup look awesome! It looks like you could really put some power down, im impressed with close to the nose you can get too.

Very much looking forward ot trying one of these in the next week or so.

Sheldon

I just got my Century, and remembered why I dug the board at the last ultra so much. I have yet to play with this one too much because of the weather, but its pump is so impressive for its drop.

930chas

The Century 38 is one sweet ride. Scott got it to me right before Ultraskate. Thanks again, Scott. First, let me say that the quality and craftsmanship in his boards are just incredible. They are stunning, and this one is no exception. I will get some pictures up shortly.

He now has cutouts for the front wheels, so 85mms all the way around. It rides so smooth, and as displayed by Zach (lovethepump) you can push fast and far with it. I messed with the set-up a little bit yesterday, and it really became a pumping machine. It is easy to get a nice rythym flowing and the carvy/surfy sensation is a blast. It has a real wide toe-box area, and your front foot just naturally rests against the up-turn on the board. I find myself checking to see where my feet are from time to time on the Mermaid, and with this deck it was just a natural footstop. I really can't say enough good things about it. I am definitely excited to get a lot more miles on the board. If you are looking for a sick Hybrid, this is the one.

scooterdad

Charlie, it is really a sweet looking ride. Get some photos up here!

Dropdown LDP decks? and Subsonic Century review

stability question

Update on century

century

Century

2nd try