Archive for pavedwave longboarding distance longboarding, flatland pumping, cross-country adventuring, boardwalk cruising, and all things skateboarding and good times
|
blake
|
dervish LDPi am just thinking out loud so if it is a stupid idea i am sorry. i love loaded dervishes the flex is great and just a great play around board. i was wondering if it would work for LDP. you could use the kiro riser kit to put the wedge on it. so would it work? has any one tried it?
|
wafflesole
|
Eric??
|
Ian the Groove Worshipper
|
If you study the Gear page of this site, you will find a wealth of information which will help you make your choice.
As per our guru, the Dervish has a 33" WB which is longer than ideal. It also has large cutouts around the front truck area which come at the expense of front foot real estate. Therefore, your stance will be limited to positions which have your front foot further back than is ideal for optimum efficiency. This will really inhibit your ability to go long distance pumping.
The Dervish is not the ideal board for an LDP setup, though it can be pumped with your front foot further back, which albeit less efficient, can still be greatly satisfying over shorter distances.
There are other mass produced decks better suited for LDP.
|
RiPPer
|
It's a drop through also. Not good for pumping leverage.
|
Nicholas Jackson
|
I own a dervish and tried set it up as a hybrid pumper, at best I could maintain speed but the effort required was greater than pushing. In short I tried lots of things with wedging and bushing set-up and nothing worked satisfactorily.
The Paris or Randals in a 180 length just do not turn quick enough even wedged. To compromise and run smaller trucks would kill the carve and thats where the dervish is at.
Let me know if you have any success.
Nic
|
blake
|
i dont have a dervish i was just throwing out the idea because i love the board as a freeride
|
northcoast
|
i've seen pics of guys who take and cut the front dropthru off and kinda point the nose like a bullet, and move the mounting holes a little bit inward.
|
JeffVyain
|
dervishI'm currently riding on a Dervish and loving this LDP phenomenon. I typically go out for 12-16 milers when I'm looking to go distance. I usually alternate between pumping and pushing but have been able to pump this board pretty comfortably. I guess I really don't have any experience to draw upon with other boards, but I really like the feel of the flex on this...I'm 160 lbs with a flex 2. When I start getting up to top speeds, I just sort of bounce from rail to rail really quickly, topping out in the 15-16 mph range, but can't hold it for very long...maybe a mile. I definitely do not have the perfect setup, according to what I've been reading here, but I don't know how much a "proper" setup would really help. I'm riding on your typical Randall 180s, 83a 4Prez and some Khiro bushings, which I switch out regularly as I find what I like the most. Right now, I got whites up front and blues in the rear.
I'm out for a month-ish with a cracked tibia, but looking forward to further experimentation in the future (just got some 83a bigzigs, replacing my Durians) the day before my injury. One day, I might try some difference decks, but I'm not convinced that a non-dropthrough, non-flexy setup is key to maximize power. Maybe it just requires a different pump...Am i way off base here? Maybe, but the bug has caught me and I'm curious to expand upon it in the near future.
Thanks for all the good reading so far.
|
jose
|
I've cut the nose of my flex 1 dervish and top mounted bennet / rtx setup.
Compared to my 160 lbs v1 Pulse that's way more stiff and narrow.
I did 20-25 miles runs, it was unconfortable after some miles: my front foot became painful. I could pump as fast and it required a bit more effort.
|
LDPanda
|
The problem, as i see it, with pumping a dervish is two fold. First, the drop-thru mounting really limits the leverage you get over the trucks. A lack of leverage is great for sliding and drifing corners, not so great for pumping. Second, youre limited by the lack of width at the nose. It really makes a huge difference to be able to accomidate your whole foot right up on the front truck. The flex is probably pretty nice for pumping, but in every other aspect, the dervish comes up short. A vanguard resolves one of the problems (the mounting) but not the other. Even the UnLoaded/ReLoaded LDP mod'd decks are a bit narrow at the nose and you lose some of the flex when chopping the length down.
|
JeffVyain
|
I can totally understand the limited leverage. Right now, though, once I'm getting up to top speed, it seems like all my leverage, power, what-have-you, is coming from my back foot--subtle pulling with my toes and pushing with my heal; atleast, it probably seems subtle externally, but I'm putting every bit of force I can into the board without pulling my foot right off of it. Once top speeds are reached, I'm probably only working with a 12-18" amplitude on my "wave" so it's quick but more of a subtle wiggle than, say, baby tossing. I'm guessing that it would probably just take less effort on a dedicated LDP board, but are top speeds going to be much different? If I can go 15mph on the flats on a Dervish with flipped Durians on R180s, can I go 18 or 20 on the flats on a Mermaid? Or is the top speed simply limited by the length of the wheelbase?
I wanna go faaaaast! If I can be talked out of pushing, I am open to it. These city push races popping up are quite exciting, but I don't think they're going to be won by pumping unless someone can reach and hold 17mph or so and hold it for the length. I can push that speed without too much trouble, but then there's an obvious fatigue issue associated with pushing. Over an 8 mile race, probably doable, but over a longer distance, pumping may be the way to go. The thing about the Dervish, though, is it seems to be pretty good for both. Maybe I could start by just throwing some different trucks on there so pushing can still be comfortable, but pumping leverage can be maximized. I'll get a dedicated LDP board before too long so I can do some major distance comfortably, but I want to create the perfect racing board first.
|
JeffVyain
|
Also, I keep looking at this picture of Paul Kent on the front page and wondering to myself if drop-through really is a significant disadvantage.
|
LDPanda
|
Paul Kent is a pusher, not a pumper.
If you think you can maintain 15mph pumping your setup, more power to you. Considering 18mph is near world record pace for flatland, i dont see it happening but i havent seen your GPS.
The difference in pushing height between a well set up drop thru and a well set up ldp deck is about 1.5 inches. I would consider that insignificant over 10k. I would not consider the difference in traction and the ability to pump efficiently insignificant over that same distance.
A dervish is not an ldp deck. You could use it for long distance, you could use it for pumping, but it is not a long distance pumping deck.
If you want to see what speeds are realistic for flatland pumping, check out the cyber mile section.
|
pavedwave
|
Re: dervish | JeffVyain wrote: | When I start getting up to top speeds, I just sort of bounce from rail to rail really quickly, topping out in the 15-16 mph range, but can't hold it for very long...maybe a mile. I definitely do not have the perfect setup, according to what I've been reading here, but I don't know how much a "proper" setup would really help....
...I'm not convinced that a non-dropthrough, non-flexy setup is key to maximize power. . |
Great to have your input here Jeff.
To put the idea of competition and fastest times in perspective, of push versus pump in terms of cross-city racing... I have always found that when I go for an all-out 13-mile PUSH to or from work, like on the rollsrolls or Evo, I can typically "beat" my best PUMP times on that same stretch, by just a few minutes.
And I also find that it hurts more.
In terms of raw times, I think that pushing has an edge up to a certain number of miles, and depending on how smooth and fluid the skater is, that could be 100 miles, or even more. But when it comes to long distance pumping, racing and fastest times per se has never honestly been my focus. With the events page yakking up ultraskates and records and highest this and fastest that, I can understand why the message here comes across that way. Events and competitions I have always viewed as a way to get skaters together, and so that we have an "excuse" to get out and skate and push our limits more than usual.
My real desire to skate long distances comes from the fact that I find the movements and feedback from pumping meditative, zen-like, insanely fun, endorphin-rich, something I rarely get doing other things like running or biking. Pumping to me is such a fluid and rhythmic movement, its really more of the experience than the end results that I'm after.
What you note about the dervish and "...can't hold it for very long...maybe a mile..." pretty much says it all. I think a guy can sprint-pump just about any board a mile, maybe two, and maybe even more. But in some ways you've already answered your own question about pumping a deck that's considered a little less than optimal. The reason LDP designs are predominantly topmount is in order to pursue the ride where you really CAN keep pumping, and pumping, if you choose to do so. And in reality, I still spend a lot of time on my LDP board pushing up hills, and just relaxing and switching between pumping and pushing.
And because of that, I'll continue to say that I find pushing a topmount NOT so dramatically different or exhausting from pushing a dropped deck --- that misperception has been played up so much for so long on the trendy websites that it's just considered "truth" nowadays; nobody doubts the shallow claim that pushing a topmount must be far more tiring -- they don't take the entire experience into account. When you skate a full, say 12-hour day, and can spend 8 hours of it pumping and 4 hours pushing, this logic starts to make sense. Balancing time between pumping with pushing on a "good ole regular topmounted skateboard", the pumping saves your body and the pushing takes care of itself, because you simply aren't pushing as much.
I really try not to be too dogmatic about considering something like the Dervish a "less than perfect" LDP, but by the rules of physics, it simply is. It doesn't make it any less of a board, it's a decent trade-off. But I'd suggest if you ever beat that board up enough that you don't mind drilling some extra holes or sawing it up a bit, try the topmounted nose and see what you think. You won't necessarily "beat" the guys that are pushing short cross-city races, but to me LDP is not really about that anyway.
The playing field could start to even out when we pump marathon length or longer races, but so far the sampling of competitive distance pumpers is (not at all surprisingly) much smaller than that of pushers.
|
JeffVyain
|
That's just incredible to me that Paul could push that distance. I think the energy issues could be overcome with consistent liquid replenishment and gel packs, granolas, etc. but WOW that would put a number on my feet. I'm surprised he didn't end up with a stress fracture or something. It would certainly be much easier if I were a better ambi-pusher (my injury occurred from practicing pushing on my off-foot...got excited and started going too fast for my own good, weeble-wobble on my super loose front truck and tada!)
I totally agree--the zen is what it's about and definitely what keeps me going at it day in and day out. It's a great feeling, and certainly one of, if not the most energy efficient form of transportation we have available. The physics all makes sense...there's really no argument there. The question for me is what amounts to the fastest ride over a given distance, and it sounds like that could be different for everybody. Some may be faster pushing, some pumping, some a combination of both, and someone's setup will probably reflect the amount of each style of riding they do. I guess that's why we all have quivers! I'm working on expanding mine over time. I just re-took up this sport...I started skating a couple years ago in Nashville and was just getting a bit too crazy on the hills with not the right amount of safety equipment and gave it up when I decided I couldn't afford the hospital bills. I took up rock climbing for a bit--love/d that too--but now that I live in Indianapolis, with no good gyms around, I went back to skating, thinking I could survive on the flats much better than on the hills of Nashville. I continue climbing the sides of buildings here and there to satisfy those needs.
The thing that I love about racing is that it brings so many people together. It's a great environment for having a good deal of fun, making good friends, and having some fun competition. I've been wanting to make the broadway bomb this year and can only hope that my injuries are healed enough to have a go at it in October. I'll probably just end up cruising the race and taking a bunch of video, assuming I can be comfortable on the board. I used to be a cross country runner, and the competitive spirit is in me, so as much as I love the zen experience, I equally love competition. This is the perfect sport for me, because I can truly love my experience training (such was not the case with running at all) and equally love the experience of competing. Thanks for the replies. Can't wait to get back on my board.
|
Bullwings
|
It's been quite a while since I've visited this site.
Like you, I've been recovering from an injury or rather, elective surgery due to a past injury.
Anyway, if you want a lower board, the Subsonic Century is definitely something to look into. It's a topmount dropdown deck, kind of like a Landyachtz Evo, but purpose built for LDP.
I got an initial prototype board from Scott, and it was great, with a few quirks here and there. I noticed on his site that he got rid of the wheel wells and has provided cutouts instead. About two weeks ago I chopped up my board and put some cutouts in too.
Anyway, the board has a good combination of still being a topmount, but dropped down. You do lose a little bit of leverage, but for me the added benefit of being lower to the ground more than makes up for it. With the cutouts, my deck is easily 2 inches lower than my subsonic Pulse setup. This is great for footbraking since I really suck at that. The board also has just the right amount of solid snappy flex to it too. It's a bit on the stiffer side, so if you want something flexier, just pick the weight level below what you weigh.
Also, I'm not sure if he's still offering two different drops, 1.5 and 2.5 inches. There's pros and cons for both.
That said, i've never been on a Dervish yet. I don't have too manny skater/longboarder friends. So, I can't quite compare the two. One thing is for sure, I can pump for a few miles if there's no head wind or inclines, and I suck at pumping.
I've been trying to make a setup that's super super super easy to pump, but is as stable as a hellcat, or demonseed, or evo when going downhill. The short answer for that, is that it doesn't exist... haha. Trade-offs... Can't have a Ferrari that goes 200+mph and off-roads better than a Hummer.
|
|
|
|