Cyber Mile times

pavedwave · Cyber Mile times

While it is true that the pavedwave.org html pages don't see much updating (yes, even the home page is behind the times now) the one page that does see some action is the Cyber Mile. And it is getting interesting again...

But what a lot of people might not know is that I've been keeping up a notification tradition that NCDSA started with their Cyber Slalom entries, although this system is not scripted, it's done manually. Whenever someone sends their details about their Cyber Mile attempt, with some confirmation of 'due diligence', I update the page of record, then post to two other places, NCDSA to pay tribute to the place that originated the idea, and silverfish because from time to time there will be some interesting discussion around the topic.

Cyber Mile page
http://home.comcast.net/~jampet99/rides/cyber.html

NCDSA
http://www.ncdsa.com/50/Cyber-Slalom-Skateboarding.htm

Silverfish
http://www.silverfishlongboarding...arding/28391-3-minute-mile-7.html

So just to keep up to speed on this forum as well, this thread will be updated whenever a new attempt is made. I intentionally post "just the facts" like the setup, the time and date, whatever the riders volunteer to send my direction.

The way these are reported might come across a little dry but the purpose is to play down the hype and lend legitimacy to these hard-earned records. I see so much B.S. posted on other places online where people claim to be casually skating flatland at "20mph" -- yet for people who ACTUALLY do the Mile as specced out, the reality becomes quite obvious, quite fast. It takes serious cojones and focus just to get under 4 minutes, folks. This ain't no disco!!

pavedwave

Ian Tilp usa 4:07

clearwater FL, asphalt quarter-mile track

Stiff Mermaid, longest WB, 7* wedged Bennett 5.0 w/ Khiro red cone/blue barrel/red bitch, 13* dewedged Airflow 130 w/ green Eliminators, 83a 77m Vents. 34/m/6'0"/200lbs

4/4/09

pavedwave

Greg Fiess usa 3:42

clearwater FL, asphalt quarter-mile track

Subsonic Pulse with longest WB, Seismic 155 rear, Bennett 6.0 front. new orange BZigs in front, older coned orange BZigs in rear. Splits: :53; 1:50; 2:46.

4/4/09

Ian the Groove Worshipper

This week's quest for a kick butt Cyber Mile resulted in the following setup changes:

I drilled a new WB for my Mermaid, 1" in front of the front truck. This makes the WB 30.5". We are finding that longer WB is faster. It made my Mermaid flexier too. This feels good, but I'm not sure if it is more flex than is ideal for Cyber Mile efforts.

This week I also somewhat begrudgingly went from my Airflow back to the Seismic ST130. Bottom line is that the Seismic gets better traction. An added benefit is that it gives me about 1.25" added WB. The Seismic also feels like it gives me more direct power transmission, without any loss due to the hangar floating around the kingpin and pivot cup, each time it changes direction. The Seismic feels like a pivot bearing truck.

On a tangent, I cracked my Seismic baseplate bolting into onto a soft riser with a little to high of a torque setting on my cordless drill with the 3/8 socket attachment. Lesson learned - Seismic needs a hard riser immediately beneath it. Fortunately only $10 for a new one, who awesome guy Dan Gesmer shipped immediately.

This week I went from 7 degrees, to 11 degrees wedging up front. Then to 9...then all the way down to 5 degrees. Its amazing how much turning I'm still getting out of a mere 5 degrees. I'm going to play with even less up front this week.

This week I also brought my HR monitor to the track. I maxed out at 175. This tells me I can still work a little harder. Ideally I'd be maxing out at around 185.

All of my setup changes are based on copying Greg(Stocago)'s setup on his "track" board, the Pulse with the longest wheelbase. We are finding that long wheelbase, tighter than normal bushings up front, and lower amounts of wedging up front are faster for the Cyber Mile efforts. Greg likes wide hangars - I haven't tried that yet, but might have to at some point.

I've got some 73mm 84a SpeedVents coming this week. I'm curious to see if their lighter weight and smaller diameter will result in faster acceleration at the moment the trucks change directions, and if this will be enough of a benefit to outweigh the possible slower top end due to the smaller diameter.

I ended up with a 4:00 mile, achieved in a pursuit race with Stocago, going opposite directions on the 1/4 mile track at a local high school. I'm happy with the improvement, and enjoying learning more about setup and pumping technique, and getting a nice workout at the same time. I'd like to see more of you go hop the fence at your local high school, time an official mile, and share your experience with the forum, as this would provide useful observations based not only on subjective impressions.

More to come...

Ian the Groove Worshipper

This week I made played with adding further dewedging to the Seismic. It is crazy how my tastes have changed - a dewedged Seismic used to feel so dead, but now I dig it. The trick is getting up to speed. It seems that the more dewedging lets me do really wide power pumps, without losing forward momentum due to excessive side to side turning. When I have a turnier rear truck I end up doing more "rabbit" style pumps to keep it in the center. The wider, power pumps are my preference and seem to generate more thrust.

This morning Greg(Stocago) and I met at a local high school track. It was so windy that we almost bailed out on doing any Mile attempts. Each lap would have half where you'd be flying with the wind at your back, then half that was absolutely brutal and demoralizing riding into the wind. It was good training, nonetheless.

We ended up doing timed 1/4 mile efforts, switching boards, wheels, and eventually swapping out my hangars for the wider ones that Stocago prefers for his timed efforts. This revealed that the wider hangars are faster. I have been resisting the switch to wider hangars, but I'm to the point where I have to give in.

My best 1/4 was 54 seconds. It is insane to think that in order to break Munson's 3:33 you'd have to do four 53 second laps. There is no way that I could have kept up the pace for 4 laps.

At the end of our session we did a pursuit mile. I ended up doing a 3:55 mile on the following setup: Stiff Mermaid with custom 30.5" WB, 10* wedged Bennett 6.0 with Khiro red/blue/blue, 11* dewedged Seismic 155 w/ green springs, 73mm 84a Vents, Biltins. This is a new PB by 5 seconds.

Given the less than ideal conditions, I was pleased with the effort. Greg and I discussed going back next weekend and bringing our tools and several wheels to do more 1/4 mile efforts to work on making some further set-up fine tuning using the clock as our guide.

Greg this week did a 3:08 wind-aided mile on a one mile section of good pavement. On his return trip into the wind he did a 4:05, for an average of 3:36.5. 3:08 for a mile is an average of over 19mph. Sick! Yet Greg is a purist and doesn't feel it counts due to not happening on a track, so I'll post it for him. We have mapped it on G Maps Pedometer, and double checked it with my GPS which confirmed the distance. Yet I do agree that there is something more legit about doing the Mile on a track, and I think it will be a moot point as Greg will beat that time on the track, shortly.

aschmidt

Ian and Stocago...good stuff, great info! You guys are way out of my league but I've started playing with some of your setups and I like them.

One word of warning for other wannabes like me- beware of 70mm wheels up front with highly wedged bennetts on less than perfect pavement. There will be kingpin contact... I have a shredded camelbak to prove it.

Keep it up guys!

-Alan

stocago

I don't know if anybody reads this stuff, but I just wanted to encourage people to get out there and challenge yourselves. Before trying to set up a makeshift LDP deck, I couldn't break 5:00 for a mile. By using the info from James in the gear section I was able to break 4:50. After getting a dedicated deck I started to make further improvements.

I have a background in long-distance running, but before that I was a skateboarder. I learned to pump back in the '70s by reading about it in a how-to book. After a long layoff from skating, I picked it back up two years ago. Having been a runner for so long has helped me aerobically/anaerobically and psychologically.

Breaking four minutes for a mile seemed impossible to me and only recently did I believe I could do it. I've made gradual improvements, taking about 10 seconds off my time every few months. My training has not really been structured, although I have been more focused in the last few months.

Other than tweaking setups and experimenting with new equipment, I can only attribute my improvement to intensity and frequency. In my running days I would have speedwork days, or high quality training. My skating, although not structured, seems to turn into hammerfests where I just punish and test myself. This may not sound fun to you--although it definitely is to me--but it's nothing like running since it's (usually) non-impact. Wink

I'm just into the speed!

aschmidt

I think I have a little bit of that same thing in me...every time I go out to ride I tell myself "I'm just going to cruise today, take it easy and smell the roses" and then end up going hard as I can trying to keep up with the pesty cyclists... and loving it... this is a great sport!

pavedwave

Ian the Groove Worshipper

James, based on my recent switch to larger hangers (begrudgingly) due to their clear timed speed advantage, I'm now looking at your 3:49 with the Splitfire (110? plus it shortens your WB) and Tracker offset setup and wondering how much faster you might go with a 6.0/155 setup, too. I know you had posted earlier about the 6.0 and not really dug it, but I'd love to see you try it. 3:49 with those narrow little hangars might go into the 3:30 range.

Greg just ordered a Seismic 180 to experiment with. How wide is too wide? We plan on meeting at the track this weekend, so hopefully we'll find out.

Tonight we went for a hammering session at Lake Seminole which has an awesome 2 mile fitness trail loop with nice pavement. I shattered my old PB, putting up a 7:41, yet once again Greg bested me with a 7:38. My time also was helped by drafting Greg for the time I could stay close to him. My HR was at about 200 trying to keep up, so I was proud of my effort. I did, however, begin to question this wide hangar setup when we were in the 2nd mile and I was hanging on for dear life to keep from getting dropped, if indeed the 6.0/155 setup does take more effort. But maybe I was just being a lazy quitter and making excuses for being too slow. The jury is still out on the wide hangars for general LDP use.

We are finding that stiff decks put the power down better for Cyber Mile efforts. Yet flexy decks are preferred for distance.

pavedwave

I hear you on the bigger hangar thing Ian. I've been skating the chill zone for quite some time -- small efforts, high frequencies, easy hill climbs. Cruising into work nearly every day, on a long, roughly 5-mile incline, has led me to go with what gets me there with very litle effort. Yet setting up for the most optimal 1-mile board is a whole different ballgame and I think you guys are spot-on for strategy.

aschmidt

Ian and Stocago, could one of you post a video of a cybermile run? I'd really like to see your pumping technique.

Ian the Groove Worshipper

This morning Greg and I met once again at the local highschool track for what turned out to be a marathon session.

The best part of the day was me setting a new PB Cyber Mile of 3:41.6 on dustm's awesome Slippery Skates Orange foam core. I've been riding this thing for a week, and it is turning out to be my fastest setup, despite having a shorter WB than my Mermaid. I had 11 degrees on a Bennett 6.0 with blue/blue/blue up front, and 7 degrees with the Seismic 155 w/ green springs in back. I had 86a/83a BigZigs, and cheap bearings. It was pretty windy today, far less than ideal conditions, so I can't wait to give it another go when it is calmer.

Today we experimented with Greg's new setup of a Paris 180 in front and a Seismic 180 in back. It ended up being surprisingly easy to pump at low speeds. Yet, it was too turney, even with 14 degrees dewedge, to be fast. We are hoping with stronger springs it will be faster. The fastest lap on this setup was 56s.

A cool experiment was doing 1/4 mile runs on the Slippery Skates Orange, only changing the wheels. I did 51s on the above setup, 52s on 83a 77m Vents, 53s on 79a 77m Vents, 55s on 84a 73m Vents, and 57s on 72a Avilas. The Avilas run was to see just how slow they really were. It should be noted that we did not keep the bearings consistent so that could have also played into it, as well as fatigue.

I forgot to bring the camera, but I will try to remember it for our next track session to get some footage to share. These past couple of sessions of doing 1/4 miles with part of the lap going into the strong wind has helped me pull more thrust out of the board.

I'm hoping some more of you will go find a local middle or high school with a 1/4 mile track, go do some runs, and share your observations.

pavedwave

Ian, once again stoked to see this!!

In looking into some logistics of setting up a possible miler "event" here later this summer, I jotted down some notes on trying to level the field for those who wish to skate and average two straight miles vs. one looped mile course.

Beyond the "run it both directions and average" rule, any slope in the pre-start area needs to be factored out as well -- after all, one could theoretically hit the start line coming off a hill doing 40mph at least one direction. To any reasonable person, this clearly violates the spirit of the rules, but there can always be boundary pushing based on a literal interpretation of what the rules do -- and do not -- explicitly call out, even though to me, "self-generated flatland speed" seems pretty explicit.

Recall the endless debates about Chris Chaput's use of a longboard fairing at Maryhill a few years back, or the same with the banning of the six-wheeler. When specifying and setting up a course for an organization like Guinness World Records, these detailed nits start to matter.

The best way to offset gravitational pre-start bias is to determine how many feet you require to reach your maximum velocity before you hit the first timing strip. Then mark this distance before the start line, and mark that same distance from the Finish line as well. In essence a full straight course should be 5,280 feet PLUS the distance you determine it takes to reach your maximum self-generated flatland velocity.

Ian the Groove Worshipper

Today I did another track session. I've been playing with running the rear truck very loose, to offset added dewedging. Running the rear truck loose definitely makes the board pump easier and feel more fluid at lower speeds. Yet today I found out that it was coming at the expense of top end speed.

I started with 10 degrees dewedge on the rear Seismic 155 and red springs. I ran a hard lap, and passed the line at 58s. I felt slow today.

Next, I put on Green springs, and tried again. This time I got 56s. It seems that the stiffer springs kept the board from tipping too far over and kept it more in the center so that more of the momentum was directed forward instead of being lost going sideways. Still not as fast as I would have hoped after last week's efforts.

Next, I decided to go all the way down to 4 degrees dewedge in back. I did a lap, and still did a 56s, which was way slower than I was last week. I was about to call it a day knowing I had no chance of besting my last week's PB, but decided to do one hard Cyber Mile, if for no other reason than to get a good workout. I pledged to dig as deep as I could, really make myself suffer from a metabolic conditioning standpoint, see if I could make it just 4 minutes of complete misery. I ended up getting a 3:44. Considering how far I was off my pace of last week on my 1/4 mile efforts, I felt pretty good about that time.

It was quite windy today, once again less than ideal conditions. I was running 79a Speed Vents which are not the fastest wheels that I have used. I have some 86a BigZigs coming this week, and some Oust Bearings which I will use as my Speed Setup. I also have some 85mm Vents coming, as an experiment. Although I'm getting close to the 3:33 record, I found out today that it's going to take some serious work to get there. Perfect conditions would also be nice. Still, if I can get this close, I have to think that if the pool of riders increased and some athletic freak types got into this that a 3:00 mile is totally possible.

One thing that I have learned from focusing on the Cyber Mile is that while it is a great way to measure and learn about your setup efficacy, the setup that is ideal for Cyber Miling seems to be diverging from the setup that is ideal for all around LDP. I do think that it could be paired with an acceleration test to really dial in the ideal setup.

The setups that I have been finding work best for the Cyber Mile effort are akin to running a tall gear on a bike, thus come at the expense of acceleration and make low to mid speed pumping less efficient/enjoyable. I think adding a 100m race, where only one push is allowed would be a nice companion test to the Cyber Mile. If you did both races with the same setup and found a way to combine the times, this could be perhaps a better way to measure develop the ideal long distance setup. But until then, I'm going to have one board setup without compromise for Cyber Mile efforts, and a second board setup for lower speed effortlessness and surfing pleasure to have the best of both worlds. I'll continue my efforts to improve my Cyber Mile time, for it is really helping me deepen my understanding of setup, and quickening the learning curve of technique development. I'd love to see some others give it a try and share your observations.

pavedwave

"The setups that I have been finding work best for the Cyber Mile effort are akin to running a tall gear on a bike, thus come at the expense of acceleration and make low to mid speed pumping less efficient/enjoyable. "

Ian first, thanks again for detailing your impressions. Yours and Greg's posts remind me of when Michael Dong was inching his slalom times by tenths of seconds toward his eventual world record, and laying the experience and trials out for the rest of us to see. Some distance runners and bikers biographies I've read talk about having "trade secrets" to their craft but I've always thought (especially in a small, growing niche sport like ours) that sharing makes the game far more interesting and progressive. And I totally hear you on the Mile-specific setup. Seems like possibly a stiffer, just slightly snappy uber-light board might be perfect, with harder 77mm Vents, and wider hangars. I'm really intrigued how well you'll be able to pump the 85mm's!!

pavedwave

philipp pumplün germany 4:10

Oldenburg, Germany East: 3.30 West: 4.50

Smooth Pavement, fresh wind (3), Olson&Hekmati Custom Ldp, Virage LDP trucks, Otangs 75mm

5/12/09

Ian the Groove Worshipper

Last Sunday I learned that stiffer springs in back were making me faster, so this week I decided to stiffen up the rear even further. I put Purple springs into the Seismic 150. I also haven't been digging the red-red-blue front bushing setup on the 6.0 - too stiff - so I went back to red-blue-blue. I kept it at 4 degrees dewedge in back, not as much as I had used in the past, but a number that had previously felt really good on the Slippery Skates Orange. This turned out to be an amazing setup, the best I've found yet.

The wind was perfect tonight, very calm. These are the best conditions that I have had on a track day. There were a couple of dudes who looked like PE teachers or coaches hanging out talking, but they didn't say anything. The track is always left with the gate open, and I took a moment to thank the universe for this sweet skate spot for Cyber Miles, so close to my house. Life is good! The pavement is not perfect, but it is pretty decent, and there is no stress of getting busted for trespassing, or fences to hop so I'm grateful.

It's funny how just slight setup changes can be the difference between something that feels amazing, and something that is a chore to pump. Although I was able to pump the Orange fast with the prior setups, it took work, and felt downright crappy at low speeds. Somehow, increasing the rear spring tension and loosening up the front made this thing totally come to life tonight. It was surprisingly easy to pump even at slower speeds, despite the very tall gear.

For wheels I used Greg's Orange BigZigs, along with a new set of Oust bearings.

I pumped a mile at 3:40.5. It was a PB, yet I knew I wasn't totally in tune with the setup yet. I tried out a couple of other boards, and was very slow on both of them. Before leaving, I decided to do one more, all out, vomit when you are done mile effort with the Orange.

When pumping that mile, I got into this groove with the new setup that was just awesomely fast without all that much effort. My first lap came in at 53s. Although I had intended to really push myself, I was finding this super effective groove was more about keeping it connected throughout than brute cranking. At certain moments, it felt like I was generating thrust throughout the entire stroke - almost like going from platform to clipless pedals on a bike - moving in circles, generating tons of speeds without over-exerting myself. I ended up clocking a 3:36.77. I was stoked!

I'm not going to mess with this setup. I'm going to just spend some time with it, to get totally tuned in with it. I think that if I can match that circular connectedness together with more force/exertion, I'll be able to shave another several seconds off my time and do something very special.

I had an interesting conversation with Keith Hollien this week, wherein he recommended using bushing duro to control the amount of turniness before adjusting wedging. This fit my findings of last week, and the stiffer springs definitely seem to provide more forward momentum by limiting the turniness of the rear truck, yet surprisingly did so without making it seem very hard to pump.

Next week the 85mm Vents will come, and we'll see if those help the top end speed. I'm not sure how much of a difference the bearings make, but I think that they definitely help.

RiPPer

I'm super impressed with what Ian and Greg are doing. And it's great to their thoughts about runs and the sets ups, I'm really enjoying it.
You guys are pushing each other like Peters and Munson do.
Does Derrek Munson read this and does he know his record is being
closed in on?

I liked how James is threatening the Distance Milage Record.
And Ted is on the edge of his seat keeping track of it.
It's a great story. A super impressive record and an undeniable acheivement.

I think the cyber mile is a great skateboard/longboard bench mark.
And with more and more skaters getting into LDP, becoming more athletic
specifically working on the cyber mile..along with general LDP of course...
I can see that three minute mile being achieved by one of you guys.
Concrete Wave should be following this story....i know i know niche market.

Anyway the times that Ian and Greg are already posting are mind blowing, and I have a feeling they are just getting started.
Nice work guys, and thanks for sharing!

pavedwave

=========================================
greg feiss
5-miles, flat loop track
20:28
(Splits: 3:59; 4:03; 4:01; 4:08; 4:17)
subsonic pulse; Bennett 6.0/Seismic 155 w/orange bzigs
all pump
6/14/09

http://home.comcast.net/~jampet99/rides/cyber.html
=========================================

fuzzydeer

How heavy is james and what springs does he use? I'm trying to sample tohe community and learn from it!

pavedwave

i'm usually around 165lbs and I run medium greens, one step stiffer than the reds.

but really, you oughta be looking at Ian and Greg's stats more than mine with regard to making your mile faster! when you take a closer look you'll note i haven't been all that 'competitive' about any of this stuff, though I do enjoy talking a big game just to get people riled, I mean, motivated Very Happy

I set my Mile and the 'first' 24-hour records years ago-- in both cases it was more to get the ball rolling than to cling to a record. and it's cool seeing the bar get pushed up by more dedicated athletes, because it does inspire and motivate!!

Ian's been running purple springs (at 198 lbs) and Greg's i'm not sure.

to be honest most of my personal interest in this is trying to ensure that the courses always stay legit and as 'regulation' as possible, given the fact we're all doing most of this remotely. some day I'd really like to see this go "live" with a few of the toughest competitors at the same venue on the same day.

pavedwave

prikelpit 4:04

Berlin, Germany

4,0458 min. auf 1609,35m, trackmate / Tapeswitch

Flat-oval, Ice-Dome

Pumping

Custom-Board Mermaid shape with concave

Paris 150mm +/- ca. 13° Holeys front red, rear yellow

Speed Vents 77mm

7/6/09

pavedwave

A prominent figure in the skateboard racing scene wrote to me just yesterday and proposed a change of rules in the Cyber Mile. I'd like to put it up here, in hope for some feedback, particularly from the guys who currently hold the top slots.

Currently, the 2nd rule states: "2. Unlimited flatland start, pushing or pumping. From start line to finish, either pump the entire length, push, or combine pushing and pumping. The start area must be completely flat, with no pre-start gravity bias. ..."

His proposal is that the skater pushes off from a dead stop, with the front wheels just behind the timing strip / starting line. This would be much like any other lap track event.

On the flip side, one might argue that skateboarding a mile should be more like timing of track bikes, which roll into the start line with pre-built momentum.

One question is that it's already such an incredibly small pool of people who've actually skateboarded a carefully measured mile -- do you think a more athletic start would attract or detract from potential entrants?

And would a timed start rather than a rolling start be more fun for spectators?

No doubt it will result immediately in slower times, and it will simplify the logistics and determinism / repeatability of the course.

LDPanda

Im not really a huge cyber mile competitor so keep that in mind but my personal opinion is that the unlimited start distance evens the playing field for pumpers. Much like a start ramp or bungee start in slalom, the unlimited start distance allows us to get foot position correct and rhythm in place prior to being timed. Foot position is less critical as a pusher and without a start distance every competitor would have to begin pushing and then switch to pumping (if they so chose). In terms of a spectator sport (which distance skating isnt at this point) i think pumping holds greater visual appeal than pushing and is more likely to catch their eyes.

stocago

Ian the Groove Worshipper

I'm not opposed to a standing start. For pumpers, it would require refining the pushing technique. I'm all for being well rounded, so I'd welcome the challenge.

Yet I like to use the Cyber Mile to measure setup efficacy - for pumping. By introducing a pushing start into the equation, it adds a variable which will inevitably obscure the objective measure of pumping by itself.

I guess this rule debate wouldn't be an issue if supremacy of pushing versus pumping had been established. At this juncture, it seems that pumping has the slight edge per the current rules, but with the pool of riders doing Cyber Mile attempts so small, the most effective technique has not been clearly established. Time will tell, yet it seems pumping has more untapped potential than pushing. I'd predict it is only a matter of time before we have setups and riders who can pump well over 20mph for a mile.

Belegnole

While I can understand both sides being taken here I would choose to start from a dead state. My reasoning is this.

If we were all at the same place or compeating one against another as in a slalom. Then having a matched ramp or area to "get up to speed" would be fair.

However in our case getting up to speed is unfair if we are to measure what one person can do in 1 mile against another. The concept as I have always thought of it was to measure how fast we could complete a mile. That should also include getting up to speed. Because attaining speed and continuing at that speed is what the measurement is about.

Gunther

I believe the running start merely adds complexity to the Cyber Mile rules. Another variable introduces more possibility for error and exploitation, and it might make mass-starts for timetrials/heats/races a headache in the future. Also, a running start will unfairly inflate the times of purely-pumped miles due to pumping's higher top speed potential.

Flying mile split times are useful when analyzing one's athletic performance, but most forms of racing do not use a running start for competition. Some auto racing does, but certainly not all. The ramps used in slalom are not the same as having a running start, they are part of the course and all contestants use them, you don't get to choose how long the start gate/ramp/chute is.

stocago

How about a poll?

If the consensus seems to be to have a dead stop... runners--err skaters--take your mark! Get set! Go! And post up your time! We need more active participants. With a blank slate, hopefully there will be.

If starting from a dead stop is meant to be some form of handicap to pumpers I don't think it's enough. Wink

egret

If from a dead stop, then what? Should there be any pushing beyond the initial one?

LDPanda

I think a lot of this debate comes down to the intention of the cyber mile. If its primary focus is *competition* then dead stop makes more sense. Its better for simultaneous starts (as in head to head races) and is probably easier to time. If, on the other hand, the focus is *comparison* then unlimited (or perhaps limited) un-timed start distance makes more sense. It provides a good way to compare different pumping setups and techniques.

just my 2c, im not that into cyber mile tbh.

Gunther

pavedwave

thanks for all the thoughts on this so far.

i won't be changing the rules on the page any time soon, if at all. this needs to be vetted out and I don't think it would matter much until there was some huge prize purse or Guinness Record on the line lined up with major sponsors or something of that nature.

i believe the rules as currently specced actually don't have a bias toward either pump or push -- in that it gives the skateboarder their own free choice as to how far a distance they will require to reach their maximum "zone" before they cross the start line and thus the timer, and that regardless of method (as long as it doesn't involve gravity) both pushers and pumpers train to find their maximum speed they can sustain for a distinct amount of time.

on the other hand i think a dead stop start could bias toward pushing, since they would have built up those specific pushing muscles which benefit the start, a pumper would thus need to become more well rounded, not that this is not possible -- look at Michael Dong. i don't think it's patently unfair to ask, I think it just asks those who have developed their pumping speed to be even more adept in both arenas, whereas the current rules compare a raw speed from A to B, and one could argue that the current rules are even biased toward pushing since they might not need nearly as much pre-start distance to attain their top-end speed.

egret

To use swimming as an analogy the current cyber mile rules are like lumping freestylers and breast strokers together. It just seems like the disciplines should be separated including combination push pump.

Also a single push means what? I assume it is the push from a dead stop with one foot on the ground to both feet on the board. Once both feet are on the board the ground is not touched again.

While it is not my place to demand the rules going one way or the other (any more than demanding the rules of the NFL changed) when I see a time posted I would be interested in also knowing how much pushing and pumping was involved. It is purely an academic thing for me.

pavedwave

well since the cyber mile of skateboarding is basically venturing into the Great Unknown, I think it's too speculative to really say that pushing times will be radically different from pumping times, or that one is so much more efficient than the other. also the pool of actual people dedicating themselves to this is maybe 10-20 at best?

i've got no interest in the single-push start, nor in the no-push all-pump start. i think that would look foolish to be wiggling like a spaz for 10-15 seconds to generate a moderate speed, from which you would then be able to start generating a race-pace. IMHO, that's just wasted time and kooky-looking, hard to take serious effort in something that very few people are already taking serious to begin with.

I totally agree it's an interesting data point to know whether any Cyber Mile effort is push, pump, or a combination (assuming that all pumpers do in fact push themselves up to speed before the start line) and I appreciate that so far people have ponied up this information.

Btw a couple times in the 4-min range will probably get pulled off the chart in the next couple weeks. I couldn't get a confirmation that they were done regulation (2 miles averaged)

As I prefer to disambiguate issues like this dead-stop start thing before they sprout new heads like a 6-wheeled-slalom hydra debate, I'd be fine ADDING a new column or table for those who really want to take on the additional challenge of a Mile that starts from a dead stop. No other rule would change -- the Mile would have to be repeated in each direction if the course were straight, or if it were a loop that does not Finish where it Starts. Right now we're honestly talking about maybe 10-20 people that are really doing this, so I don't see any problem offering this up as an option and seeing who (if anyone) submits some new times based on this rule amendment.

And if pumpers still dominate the dead-stop Start line Mile, then what? Smile

stocago

egret

HawHaw. I never thought about how retarted I probably look. I always do the spaz start. So when people point it's not because I look cool? Embarassed

I reAlly spaz with two wheels in the air. I need to have someone shoot a video of my starts to see myself. I hope I am not to longboarding what speedwalkers are to walking. Crying or Very sad

pavedwave

impromptu "exhibition" competitions have been held in the past, like pumping uphills, lobbed onto some post-slalom race event a few years back. Chaput apparently won one of the uphill pumps. depending on the venue it can be fun to do something like that, all in good fun.

I think longer term, in order to eventually have the cyber mile stats be credible and competitive, we aim for rules that create a repeatable course worldwide that's desirable to set up and run, and actually interesting for spectators to watch. what I'm really hoping to get some day soon is a chance to throw a Cyber skateboard Mile Pursuit Race into the middle of the Friday Velodrome (biking) race night. I've been proposing it to them for a couple years now.

derekderekderek · li'l wigglers

hey peeps-
Just got caught up on 3 years of cyber mile talk. great to see so much evolution! Congrats to Ian and Greg for your awesome progress, and for being on the verge of breaking the 3:30 and 17mph barrier. And I'm looking forward to seeing how the 3:20/18mph mountain will be conquered. That one's a doozy.
Looking forward to learning more, and joining in the conversation.

Derek

stocago

Welcome to the forum, Derek. It'd be great if you could share some info on your gear experimentation.

I have limited experience with Carvers, but Ian and I have played around with lots of different setups and have found it amazing that both you and James have gone as fast as you have with your setups. It'd be interesting to see what you guys could do with a Bennett 6.0 and a Seismic 155. I know that styles vary, as well as personal preference.

Do you have a long distance running background as well? How's your current fitness level?

For the time being, I'm standing pat with my personal best cyber mile. I recently had another crash that I'm healing from, so I don't see myself closing in on 3:30 in the immediate future.

I think it's exciting that more and more people are getting interested in LDP and hopefully there will be a larger pool of skaters under the 4-minute mark and pushing the envelope.

derekderekderek

Nice to meet you Greg!

are you a distance runner too? It's wild how similar they are. It transfers over amazingly well, right down to the running shoes...
I can definitely see where narrow hangers would be advantageous on a long ride. But for middle distances I haven't found the deep grooves. In the upper gears, wider trucks seem to generate more power with less effort, and allow you to access a larger sphere of motion.

what's your experience been with the different widths?

samhell

My cyber mile time,
San Diego velodrome, (5 laps = 1 mile)

3 minutes 57 seconds.

On my GTCPLDP, setup with Bennett 4.3/Grombiz rear.
Lemon/Lime Big Zigs, Rock Rons Missile bearings.
No wind, warm day....

Winnersh

My LDP cyber marathon.... Cool

Goodwood Roller Marathon, Goodwood Racetrack, United Kingdom.

2 hours 26 minutes 11.08 Seconds

STOKED!

LDPanda

Nice dude! sounds like a killer event and a very impressive time!

fuzzydeer

He Derek!
Cool!
Are you coming to Rogue?
Okay back on topic,
Obviously you are a distance runner, most of us distance skaters have had something to do with running in our past. I ran in highschool and took it up again as I started distance skating.

Do you plan on beating your current record? To set the record did you utilize running in your training regimen?
May I ask what was the spacing between your mounting holes? (you wheelbase as measure from inside mounting holes}

I eventually want to make an attempt on the cyber mile in both the LDP and Pushing categories. Although I'm not ready for this yet.

It would be cool to meet you and chat, I look forward to meeting with you, hopefully at the rogue race if not this year then next year! you'll do well.

derekderekderek

hey!
would love to come to Rogue, but it's looking like it's going to have to be next year. that sounds like an incredibly cool race. i'm looking forward to meeting you and talking as well.

i did have a training program worked out for the mile, based off the running programs from my high school and college days. it was definitely slanted toward the running side of things, with long runs and mile repeats on the track. On top of that, having a riding buddy like James was as big a factor as anything. We were constantly pushing each other, and testing out new ideas. He was also making huge progress in building an efficient ldp setup. If it weren't for him I'd probably still be on my sector 9 with randall 180s...

the distance between my inside mounting holes is 29.5 inches. I'm not sure if the board is still available, but it was the first Roe LDP board they were selling (like the mermaid without the hips.)

as for the record- i won't be hitting a personal best this year. but it would be cool to see Greg or Ian or anyone else break 3:30. and i'm really looking forward to seeing that 3:20 barrier broken. cool stuff!

Ian the Groove Worshipper

It's great to see the King of Cyber Mile, Derek posting here, and some new times posted as well.

Derek - are you still riding the Carver Cx front and rear? That's crazy that you are able to pull so much speed out of that setup! If you could detail your setup, I'm sure many of us would find that very interesting.

Samhell - that's a great time for those narrow trucks, and the shorter WB of your beautiful boards. I bet you'd be even faster with some wider trucks, and a longer WB, though of course it would come with some other compromises. I'd love to see you experiment with a WB in the 35" range and let us know what you discover.

About a week after my last Cyber Mile post, I got a set of 147mm Radikal Talons which are reverse kingpin trucks with sphericals in the kingpin and pivot. I've been running them with 85mm SpeedVents on my Mermaid. The setup is pure stoke. The big Vents roll over everything, and the sphericals keep wheelbite in check. It is super surfey, and has that sweet precision feel. Yet with the shorter WB (due to the reverse KP axle position) and super turny rear truck, it seemed to come at the expense of some top end. Nevertheless, I'm going to try to make a trip to the track within the next few days and see what I can do on it. Ever since getting this setup, I really haven't had much desire to ride the feel-compromised Seismic/Bennett Cyber Mile setup detailed in my prior posts.

I definitely think that conditioning is key for a fast Cyber Mile. I do Crossfit.com workouts. My ability to pump hard continuously for 4 minites falls off dramatically when I'm not doing them regularly. I've been working out hard lately, so I'm looking forward to getting out to the track to see if I can close in on 3:30.

derekderekderek

nice to meet you Ian.

85mm speedvents! that's amazing you are pumping at that speed with wheels that big. it sounds like you have a promising setup for your next trip to the track.

for the mile i was riding with carver cx trucks on the front and back, with stock bushings and 1.5 inches of risers on each. both trucks were tightened down as far as they could go without making the bushings pop out beyond those cupped washers that go on top of them. and the carvers had to be brand new, because after 2 or 3 rides the king pin would grind out the center hole, and that really had an effect on efficiency. the wheels were the red 77mm speedvents (75A?) with bilt-in bearings.

i rode the loop counterclockwise, which made a huge difference on the turns. i rode the curves with a sideways pump, and with a lower center of balance than on the straightaways. On the straights i moved up on the board (not sure but i think i was centered just in front of the midpoint of the board), turned my hips forward and raised my center of balance to right around my sternum. the windmill arm flailing i do looks absolutely ridiculous (filming frightens me), but it helps me to adjust my center of balance and dial in the right timing for the big pumps.

i think that's most of it. looking forward to hearing all about your successful experience. I know you are completely dialed and ready to rock. good luck! I'm rooting for you all the way.

derekderekderek

ok - i am slowly connecting the dots here. is fuzzydeer Paul Kent?

LDPanda

lol yes

derekderekderek

Yeah brotha Paul Kent!

I am so freakin' far behind on what's going on here. Completely lost. You guys are on it.

I imagine it's posted somewhere here already, but it would be awesome to get advice from anyone here about new setup possibilities. What's out there as far as a light, stiff pumping deck with some foot room? And for trucks- any suggestions for a wider carving front truck with a tiny bit of surfiness? And what's the thinking on the back truck- are you guys finding more flatland speed in a stable back truck, or in one that has some give to it?

Thanks peeps.

LDPanda

For a front truck intended for flatland speed, most people seem to be using the Bennett 6.0. Its wider and stabler yet still maintains a surfy feel. I find it too wide for the hills on the burke gilman but its definitely the truck of choice for the cyber mile guys. As far as decks, the lightest is probably the foam cores made by dustm (his name on this site) i believe his company goes by the name 'slippery skates' but im not positive on that one. The roe mermaid and subsonic pulse are both very respectable for speed. Theyre both a little longer than the dustm foamcore and a little heavier. The pulse tends to run a bit stiffer than the mermaid. For rear trucks, it sounds like most prefer a tighter truck for speed. A lot of the cyber milers are using a Seismic 155 paired with the Bennett 6.0. The same effect could be had from a standard bushing truck, however. I personally like the airflow and the virage when it comes to rear trucks.

stocago

Hey Derek, what is your current setup, btw? Would you be interested in a foamcore? The Slippery Skates are nice and light and may have a tad more width than the Mermaid or Pulse. Not sure about the LBL or Galac. I'm not sure a foamcore would be a good everyday deck, but it'd be a great track or time-trialing one.

As far as trucks, you should definitely try the Bennett 6.0 in front. For flat land I'd use it all the time, but with more varied terrain it can be kind of a pain. You should also experiment with a Seismic Stable-Turn in back. The medium green springs work best for me. With light tension they can be almost carvy and tightened down they really push me forward. With the reds I need them full stiff and with the purples I keep them on a lighter setting.

edit: d'oh! you beat me to it LDPanda! I'm too slow Sad

SkateKi

hey thanks for the tips! crazy that you guys had the same thoughts at the same time...

i'd love to try out the foam core, and the bennetts and the seismics. and the mermaid too of course. (there have been actual mermaid sightings in Israel in recent days. for real!)

my current setups are the same as they were 3 years ago. i hadn't been riding much at all since then. even with ancient equipment it feels great to get back into the groove.

ps- I changed my screen name because I was having trouble logging in.

SkateKi

what is the current record over 5 miles?

stocago

I believe the unofficial record was 20:28 for 5 miles, which was done on a quarter-mile track (20 laps). I believe a sub-20 is doable.

I think someone needs to do a half-marathon, somewhere under an hour. The hour record should be 14 miles plus.

SkateKi

we did a 13.1 mile half marathon for the 2006 solstice skate. the results are somewhere in the events page or something? 56:23 won it.

any word on how Ian's new setup worked on the track? looking forward to hearing how it went down.

pavedwave

hey fellas, both of those records are now up in the re-org of the cybermile page.

i've been moving things about in light of all the full-marathon records just established over in the UK. even tried to rouse the NWLB crew out of hibernation, but most of the crowd leans toward "gnar" courses with steeps and slidey turns. the flats are a different beast.

our half-marathon got buried on the 'events'! its also here on ncdsa:
http://www.ncdsa.com/contest_registration.asp?ContestID=231

SkateKi

cools. thanks JP.
Also, Greg and Ian have some blazing 5 mile records that would be cool to see up there. I could post a distant third place time if you need any additional times for that. i think 5 miles is a key distance.
and eventually I wonder if we'll be seeing more of the 10k 20k 50k distances recorded by the euro folk. great stuff!

JP- you have done an amazing job building and promoting LDP. i'm completely impressed.

JeffVyain

alright, so people are doing these on concrete high school tracks for the most part, right? any ruling one whether I could pump on a mondo track? i went out there a couple months ago just to screw around and while it felt a little slower, I can't explain the difference in level of grip. I was turning and could not slide out; it was beautiful, leaning into a turn that felt like I was going to end up flat on my stomach and it just sticks...no idea what that would equate to in terms of pumping, but i'll give it a shot in several weeks when i'm capable of skating again (currently out with a knee sprain/fractured tibia--hence the amount of time I've been spending on this stupid computer...shoot me, please). Good news is I've been getting tons of awesome information lately.

just read this whole thread. sounds like my dervish with randall 180s may have not been all too bad of a setup afterall...certainly not ideal, but not that bad for big sweeping pumps. on that board, the power of the pump really comes almost all from the back leg. i did squander out a 3:57 pumping down a trail with it. i think it might've had about a 4-5 ft drop in elevation though...hard to tell. did a push mile on it and it definitely felt a little bit uphill going back the other direction. still, i hit my half in 1:40...just crapped out and couldn't hold it anymore. wasn't the right day, i guess.

pushing is definitely faster. you all will see. it's just a matter of getting in shape to do it. i have a feeling paul kent, i, or some other pusher who gets the itch will put that record down fair and square before too long. the only thing is i won't be able to do is do it on a track, because there's no way i can get proper leverage going around a track turn.

SkateKi · wide hangers

i know i'm in the minority here with the wide hanger thing, but for me they are crucial to maintaining pumping speeds faster than 16 mph. When I ride with Bennett 5.3s (or less) in back, the wheels start to slide out at a 3:40-ish pace.

i've been testing out a setup with holeys up front and a carver cx in the back. it's a tough setup that is too much for me in the first 12 weeks of training, but it's the first one that i've found that could break the 3:20 mark. i'm shooting for a run at it in mid/late october.

and beyond the mile, while i'm preachin' the wide truck gospel... since most distance races are of the push-pump-bomb variety, narrower trucks become a liability on the downhills.

just thought i'd throw that out there...

wafflesole

Holeys on the front!

now it gets interesting!!!

stocago

I got out to the track today and posted my best cyber mile time since my two bad crashes, only off my best by three seconds. It's encouraging because I think I can do better with more focused training and some tweaking to my setup.

I'm only bothering to report this because I have been experimenting with my front wheels and truck.

This was my first sub-4 mile without a Bennett in front. I just got one of the MHS hybrid trucks, an Ace 55 hanger and Core baseplate. It's just a tad wider than a 6.0. I've only had it a couple of days and haven't really got it dialed in. I haven't been able to run barrels and have it feel right, so I've been using hard cones. I also didn't like running either a cupped or flat metal washer on top, so I had to use a small plastic one. I had to take out some wedging that I'd been using on the 6.0. The strange thing is that I had to tighten my Seismic purple springs to the tightest setting!

I used freeride wheels in front, Durians. I tested them out for the first time two weeks ago and ran a respectable time, so I was eager to give them another shot and I don't like to change too many things at a time. So are the rounded edges really hurting me? The stopwatch doesn't lie.

Next time out I'll either have the truck dialed in more or just try it with my normal orange Bzigs.

JeffVyain

Thanks for the update. I love this forum. People are so eager to share great information. Has made surfing a blast.

Rode for the first time since I sprained my knee the other day. Just up and down a long hallway to feel out my balance. I was able to balance on one leg for a few good seconds while rolling. I started using ice cups (dixie cups filled 3/4 with water. freeze and tear off paper around the ice and you have the perfect ice massage tool!) and have made significant improvements in how my knee is healing over the past few days. Still hoping I can show up at the Broadway Bomb, but excited to start skating some distance as soon as it feels comfy.

stocago · Re: wide hangers

SkateKi

hey Greg-

what stances do you use for your top gears? my all out sprint is a forward facing stance, where i alter my weighting between my front/right foot and my back/left foot. I twist my torso and windmill my arms forward. This form maxes out for me at around 3:08, and at that pace i am pumping with everything i've got.

when i need to change gears, I transition from the forward stance to a sideways stance dolphin pump. The windmill arms stop and for maximum friction i keep my feet perpendicular to my direction of travel. (my ideal stance here is purely sideways, with feet, knees, hips, shoulders, and head pointed in the same direction. but everything has a tendency to drift to a more open position that allows me to see where i'm going.) This gear maxes out for me in the 3:50 range and feels like trying to hula hoop 200 pounds.

also- you guys know way more about boards and gear and setup philosophy than i do. maybe this road has already been gone down, but it seems to me that one of the most important measurements for defining a board would be the diagonal from the outside of a back wheel to the outside of the front opposite wheel. (do you factor in wheel height too?) i think the diagonal is a significant measurement for several reasons, not the least of which is because it measures the most contrasting contact points for any wavelength traveled by a given board. also, this measurement takes into account wheelbase and truck width and wheel width. When a rider starts hitting a board's upper limits, they can find higher gears by increasing that diagonal measurement. i guess all i'm trying to say is that i'm a fan of wider trucks.

and i totally know what you mean about not being a sprinter. the mile feels like the first distance where you have to start dealing with pain management.

anyway, those are my thoughts. would love to hear your insights too.

stocago

I've experimented a little with a forward facing stance, but never got comfortable with it. It seemed fast, but not faster, for me, anyway. I guess I should revisit it.

I have a fairly compact stance that doesn't change too much in different gears. In my top gear I guess I'm more aware of my arms and torso/hips getting more involved, just throwing more into it, along with the legs. When negotiating the turns on the track I feel that I'm having to pump more with the front, keeping it tighter and faster, even though the speed feels a tad slower. By breaking it up this way it gives me a bit of a rest I guess, and evens out the effort.

It's crazy how much wind makes a difference for me. My best times at the track have come with near-perfect conditions. I've also done a few wind-aided miles point-to-point and found it interesting how my form changed to the most efficient quick/short pump, keeping it centered. Bigger pumps were wasteful and not faster.

I'm wanting to get some slightly longer wheelbase decks. Hopefully, that'll be soon! I need to come up with some funds. Maybe I need to sell some of my stuff. Smile

As far as bigger trucks, yes I'm also a fan. I haven't had 180s dialed in right. My fastest setup has been the 6.0/155. I recently tried the MHS Hybrid that has a 6 3/8 hanger and think that it's also fast. It also comes in a 6 3/4 width. I've often wondered what a Bennett 7.0 would be like. I'm hoping to experiment with the Surf-Rodz axle extensions soon.

pavedwave

SkateKi

right on jp! thanks for that. i hadn't heard of those. those seem like they would add all kinds of possibilities.

pavedwave

New Cyber Mile time of 4:50 - Marco Cattan.

http://home.comcast.net/~jampet99/rides/cyber.html

1st mile time from Italy!

stocago

I've been testing the Surf-Rodz extensions for the last two weeks and just got back from another time-trial at the track. I did my third fastest mile, but was slightly disappointed. I was hoping that the extensions might be the magical ingredient that could take a second off each lap split, but I don't think they're working for me. Someone like Gunther that has the strength and power to unleash the potential of these things has to try them. I'm not done experimenting, because I'm sure I can continue to tweak the setup, but just like riding a bike, the top gear isn't necessarily the best/ fastest. The wind conditions were perfect, so I don't have any excuses. I just turned 47, so I feel like I'm racing father time!

egret

Hi Stocago, you used the extensions on the 6.0?

stocago

No, a few weeks back they were all out of the smaller extensions, so only the 70mm were available. I've been running them on a 4.3 hanger. It should measure 180mm, but it's actually wider. I narrowed the track by flipping the wheels.

Surprisingly, they don't take that much effort once you get going. I've been using them daily for almost two weeks and then for the last two days I went to a regular 6.0 and it's amazing how easy and carvy it is.

blake

that gives me a good idea. would training on a wider axle hanger (say a 6) then when you do an ultra use your normal width (say a 5) then it should seem easier for the divie carvie pumps that really help in LDP. i am not sure if it would or it would just be weird switching hangers

SkateKi

congrats Marco!

stocago- what the hay are you talking about, racing father time? by the time we're in our 60's i'm sure there'll be carbon fiber bones and cellular regeneration nanocomputers pumping through our veins.

stocago

I'm probably going to bore people with these stats/observations, but I did a couple of time trials today and was a bit surprised with the results. School was in session today, I couldn't use the track, so I went to an accurately measured mile straightaway on nice asphalt.
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3255626
First, I did a 2-mile (out and back) on my track setup with a slightly longer (inch or less) wheelbase, wider hangers, stiffer bushings and springs. This setup felt tight, fast and responsive. Unfortunately, I didn't have the advantage of split times like I do at the track so I had no idea of how fast I was going. It was breezy so I had the benefit of a tail/cross wind on the way out, but had to fight it a bit on the way back. I hit the halfway in 3:27 and finished in 7:48.

After a 5-10 minute recovery I did it again with my everyday deck, so slightly shorter wheelbase/hangers. This setup felt turny and I didn't feel like I was able to put the power down as well. The wind conditions seemed identical and I went through the midway point one second slower. I was growing weary especially going against the wind, but didn't want to give up. My finish time was again one second slower.

This is more proof to me that wider hangers, considerably wider than 6.0 are not working for me. They don't seem to hurt, but are of no benefit for flatland pumping.

Derek, I'm curious if with your higher gear/windmill action the 180s could work for you.

Blake, using a 6.0 in training could be a great benefit. It's very easy to swap out the hangers, especially if you have extra wheels. I can't say that you'll do more miles in an ultra with a 5.0 after training with a 6.0, but it'll feel noticeably easier. Just keep in mind that I'm a flatlander and don't have to contend with many inclines, just occasional bridges and hills.

update 11/24: Did another 2M on the same course today in a personal best 7:43. This was with same setup I've been using lately that feels very fast, but haven't done a cyber mile with: slightly shorter wheelbase (one increment), navy blue springs with less dewedging and durians.

Cyber Mile times

li'l wigglers

wide hangers

Re: wide hangers