| Archive for pavedwave longboarding distance longboarding, flatland pumping, cross-country adventuring, boardwalk cruising, and all things skateboarding and good times |
| SoloRider |
Custom build questionsI've started my LDP deck build this morning and I've got a quick question. I have the ability to tune where in the deck the flex occurs and how much of a difference in flex there is. Is there going to be any benefit in localizing the flex? The options I've come up with so far are stiff in the middle and flex on the ends, flex in the middle stiff on the ends, flex front and stiff back, or stiff in the front and flex in the beck. I should mention that when I say stiff and flex, that's relative, the deck will be fairly stiff overall. The option I left out of course is consistent flex across the entire deck, but I can't see the fun or challenge in a build like that. I've got until Tuesday to figure this out without halting build progress.Any input would be greatly appreciated. |
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| SoloRider |
So no love yet, my current thought at this point is to put the flex under my back foot since my front foot will be pretty much resting on the front truck already. Maybe vise-versa because it'll fell more solid under my back foot but still have some give from the front.
You may not know the answer for sure but I'd love to hear ideas and the thought process behind them. Theory and postulation welcome. |
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| LDPanda |
I would say stiffer on the ends with a little give in the middle. When i find the flex of the deck to be the most useful is when i have my front foot right over the front truck and my rear foot at about the mid point of the deck. When im riding up front only or taking a wide stance, i dont notice the flex much.
That being said, i saw an insect ldp with the back end wrapped in carbon fiber so the front was flexier than the back. Not sure why they decided to that but but ive seen it. With all that being said, i think most builders are using a uniform flex across the lenght of the board, getting a litle extra flex out of the 'hips' by making that area of the deck a little skinnier (see the mermaid or pulse). Edit: Oh, didnt realize you were the fourty-two longboards guy, i really like your work. Ill be excited to see how it turns out. Please post some pics here when youre finished. |
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| pavedwave |
This is the general notion we followed with the 2005-06 Roe LDP and its follow up Mermaid, the height of camber is the stiffest point and where it levels out becomes the flexiest. Obviously this graphic is a huge oversimplification and exaggeration, not a mathematical model!!
You might think in the top example of having most of the rider's weight over the higher point of camber most of the time, then using the rear foot to jam the back of the board downward to create tension and release energy (the "flexy" point) -- whereas in the bottom example the rider's cruising stance is a little farther back, more of a surf-stance. The natural flex of the bottom example is more toward the nose, but I wouldn't expect the pumping technique to be exactly the same on this board, given the overall stance is quite different-- but the overall effect is the same, the flexy point being toward the front rather than the back of the board. There have been builders who shave out certain spots or add thickness, even naming the technique "intelliflex", but in some ways this is overthinking the whole thing. With a consistent stiff material, through camber and shaping you can add flex wherever needed. Back in '06 the Mermaid shape was snickered at the same time it was also celebrated, and several years later, it's stood the test of time. We built the hips into it, and a year later into the Subsonic. Just a few months back Gesmer asked me "why the hips", because it seemed counterintuitive to him (justifiably so) since most other pumpers like those from Indiana or Motion followed the traditional, long smooth side cut for "predictable" pumping response. The reason was that IMO both Roe and Subsonic had been building their decks particularly stiffer than other makers, and the feedback from racers was pretty unanimous on this point. I figured, why not add flex by scooping out some of the long-straight or convexed rigidity of the outline shape, and give it "hips", since they were going to keep making their boards stiff anyway. The hips also defined the areas of widest foot grip, and with the combination of concave+camber brought back some of the rigidity that was "lost" with the addition of hips. |
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| SoloRider |
Thanks for the input, both of you. I'm really excited about this build and I've been thinking about it's execution for over a month now. I'm leaning toward a combination of the two drawings James posted with both camber and flex at the back of the board, and I think my way of doing this will work out really well. I'm not quite ready to give away all my secrets just yet but construction will be somewhat similar to this:
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| SoloRider |
I think I'll call it "veriflex" 
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| Redline |
Looks like you got some good advice.
My only other suggestion would be some wheel wells on the front similar to a Pulse. Wheelbite sucks...HARD! Can't wait to see the end result! |
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| SoloRider |
Hey Fred, How deep are those wheel wells in relation to the baseplate of your trucks? Without wheel wells I'm clearing just over 1/4" and I'm wondering if I really need to cut into the deck more. Also, tonight at 9:00 works for me if you're still up for it. | ||
| LDPanda |
Youre local to washington? so are james and i, we should get together sometime and skate. | ||
| SoloRider |
Yep, I live about 1/4 mile north of Greenlake. I'm down for skating for sure although still less than skilled. I build much better than I skate. | ||
| SoloRider |
I just cut and pasted this from the 'fish but it's all relevant here as well.
Alright, the deck is not quite done, but I'm ready to start talking about it. I've actually been working on coming up with a shape for this deck for the last month and a half. I simply couldn't draw anything I liked at all. I really like the design intent behind the Roe Mermaid shape but to me it looks like a mid 90s Ford Taurus. You know, kind of an uninspired jelly bean shape, not that I was coming up with anything better. It wasn't until I saw this entry in the Silverfish build off thread that I knew exactly what I wanted. Gnidnu has an amazing aesthetic going with his deck, so I took the basic shape and made it longer to meet my specific needs(with his blessing of course). The construction is two plys of h-lam bamboo with carbon fiber top and bottom and a two piece stringer. There's about 1/4" of concave and just a little camber centered under the back foot. The two piece stringer was used to help control where the flex is located. The front stringer is padauk, a very stiff hardwood, and I used more flexible mahogany in the back. Standing on it while it rests on block it feels just right. Currently the last coat of epoxy is setting up and by tomorrow night it should be completely done except for grip. First pumps will be on Saturday. 
Lucky for me, my second run of decals came in just in time to cover up the one little snag in the carbon and still get embedded in the epoxy. 
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| stocago |
So what is the length? Forty? How long is the wheelbase? With that shape it looks like it could be drilled close to the ends to maximize it, if desired. It'd be nice to have that option. | ||
| SoloRider |
40" long, 9-3/8" max width, and I'm planning a wheelbase of 27, 28-2/4, 29-1/2, and 30-3/4 |
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| pavedwave |
Inspiration is a fickle thing. I've heard the full range, more positive than not. I sometimes start my drawings with straight angles, then add the curves. I don't see a lot of difference between the Mermaid and this other shape and dimensions, other than all the curves have been taken out and replaced with straight angles. In a way it's a cross between the Mermaid and the Galac, both shapes that I worked on (far more the Mermaid than the Galac.) My bias is a focus on profile, camber and functional shaping and performance, not so much on visual woodwork elements. There are other things about layup, epoxy, CF and glass that are truly magic with regard to the actual flex and performance -- that's where I bow down to a guy like Gareth to knock it out and I just do the grunt work of testing and feedback from that point. The Mermaid's raw shape was developed around miles of pumping and where strength and flex needed to be placed, the final shaping and refinements inspired by naturally occurring curves in nature, ranging from the movement of a dolphin to the outline of Jennifer Lopez's butt. Maybe we'll catch you at the lake on your board some time soon. |
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| SoloRider |
You're absolutely correct, and my aesthetic tastes are certainly not for everyone. I spent a lot of time drawing shapes, all of them starting from the Mermaid and the Pulse really, but nothing was really working for me. I started my LDP deck nearly a full month after I wanted to, simply because I couldn't land on a shape. I know that's not the most important thing, but I'd be lying through my teeth if I said that it's not a big part of it for me. It was really the subtle nose that hooked me, after that I was more than ready to build. Also, building has been an evolution for me, each deck teaches me something new. I've got a strong background in carpentry and boatbuilding and working with fabrics of various types in not foreign to me, however applying those skills to something as simple as a plank of wood(or grass) can be quite the challenge. This may not turn out to be a great pumper, it's my first after all(#20 overall), but I promise the next one will be better. |
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| Redline |
Wow, that looks great! (Although I figured it would  )
I'm curious to feel the difference between this board & my Pulse. Setting up your trucks right will be key, as well as deck flex. |
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| stocago |
Wow, I did not know that! I think I love my 'maid even more now. 
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| SoloRider |
So the first ride happened today. I think it went really well. Fred(Redline) and I made our way around Greenlake a couple times and met up with James(pavedwave) about 3/4 into the first lap. I still don't have my pumping skills down but by the end of the second lap I could accelerate a little once already moving but not really from low speed. It was pretty cool to watch James at work, he can really make a deck move. Also, he didn't seem to bear any hard feelings about me insulting the Mermaid, and if he did he disguised it well.
Anyway, back to the deck, I think it's just a touch on the stiff side but lengthening the wheelbase may be all it's going to take to really dial the deck. Bushing setup seems pretty good, but as I learn more I may find something better. Trucks are Bennett 5.0 on the front and Tracker RT-S on the back, the wheels are Pink BigZigs dyed scarlet(to match the front stringer). 
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| pavedwave |
It was good to meet you guys -- getting out and skating is far more satisfying and interesting than writing editorials, quite frankly! The board felt good, I was focused as much on trying to figure out how well your trucks/risers/bushings were set up as much as the deck -- this is vital as you're learning to pump. Seems it is pretty much dialed, you'll just have to figure out whether you like more or less rebound in the front, that's completely a question of preference, you've got all the right gear there. For the deck, lots of room on top to move about, and the hand-carved wood stringer work is really polished. It will be interesting to see how your experiments with a snappier flex evolves -- that's what makes or breaks an LDP for me and there have only been a few board makers that really have the recipe down. As I mentioned, a very slight touch of camber can add a lot of magic to this type of board. Again, regarding the "jellybean Taurus" thing, given that the overall majority of Mermaid owners have posted up positive or glowing feedback about the aesthetics of the Mermaid, but more importantly, its performance and flex -- it's near impossible for me to get insulted. The gestalt of your board borrows visually obvious inspiration and roots from previous LDP board designs, in terms of width, wheelbase, waist, and length. If I were to toss out a purely aesthetic retort, I'd say the Pumper is an "uninspired maple bar reminiscent of a boxy Honda Element." I mean seriously, those wood plies look edible!!
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| SoloRider |
Yeah, I deserved that. Quick little report, I lengthened the wheelbase yesterday from 28.25" to 29.5" and headed back down to Greenlake for a couple more laps. It was not good. The construction shortcomings came glaring to the fore. I knew when I started that the broken stringer could be an issue but with enough overlap the problems could be negated, hence the flame. Well, the overlap is definitely not long enough because at the longer wheelbase I can feel the break in flex that I couldn't at the shorter setting. More when I step off to push(mongo) but it still bugs the hell out of me. As for pumping at the longer wheelbase it feels like I'm getting too far into the flex whereas I didn't feel I was getting far enough in at the shorter wheelbase. Of course I've only traveled ~12 miles pumping and all of that in the last two days, so I've still got a lot to figure out. I'm thinking the deck would have been better with a single stringer of medium flex than with the soft/stiff combo I went with, but where's the fun in that. I'm going to continue to ride this deck and keep the wheels spinning in my head on how it can be better. I've also got some bushing combos I'm putting together to see what works and what doesn't. My current front setup feels good at the start of a turn but seems to ramp up too quickly. I don't really know what to do in the back, I'm lifting a wheel on hard heel side pumps so I'm going to play with that a bit too. It seems to me that the back isn't near as important as the front so I'm not going to expend as much energy there until I feel like I've really got the front dialed. At least I've got a little time to think about it now, I'm off the deck for the next few days, wife's orders. I've been working on a nice little case of tendinitis and after my 6.5 miles last night I was limping pretty good. Icing three times daily and some Naproxen, hopefully I'll be riding again later in the week. |
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